????
I really enjoyed Chapo Trap House's discourse on this film. Looking forward to seeing it.
Not that any of you are going to listen to some dirtbag leftists discuss a film for an hour but, there be heavy spoilers, fair warning:
[soundcloud]https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/356-sympathy-for-the-joker-10819[/soundcloud]
Q: If I've seen The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver is there any reason for me to go see this?
Yes, but if you've also seen I'm Still Here then, no.
(just kidding, I have no opinion and haven't yet seen the film)
What's with the lack of GOOBERS ?
I'm more of a Raisinets guy.
Todd Phillips directed the "Hated" documentary about GG Allin? GG was a knob.
Name one thing GG was wrong about, I'll wait
;)
Redacted
Dude I was kidding joking :(
(edited to stay on topic)
Any of You People see JOKER ?
Any of you jokers seen GOOBER?
(https://www.closerweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/andy-griffith-goober.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200)
Todd Phillips should do a Mayberry RFD movie next, but make it like all dark and edgy and stuff.
I'm scared to go see it because of white males
There will be security in the theater, in case white males start any trouble.
Yins play both sides of the fence, eh?
GG is god.
LETS JUST REVIEW THE MOVIE YOU GUYS. Come on now!
I haven't seen it. Is it good?
Yes
Quote from: Jor el on October 09, 2019, 10:01:58 PM
Yins play both sides of the fence, eh?
My opinion: the fence is a lie and people need to stop thinking about every movie and comedy special in terms of the culture war.
Agreed....the wrong people.
The score is phenomenal as well.
Meh.
first half is a bit chewy but it gets way better towards the end
real good dark movie - not as good as the dark knight though and in a total different zip code than king of comedy or taxi driver
Not as good as the Dark Knight? So it takes the crown as the fucking worst movie ever? I see.
Accurate?
(https://i.imgur.com/jwnxkUG.jpg)
i just saw it and i thought it was awesome. phoenix kills it as the joker. the only thing weird to me now is that the joker is way older than batman. i didnt expect that kind of timeline.
Never really saw these flicks in general. Seems goofy.
Finally saw this yesterday. Really liked it and it was extremely violent especially the scene when his clown buddies came over his apartment.
Arthur Fleck - "Knock-Knock"
Murray Freeman - "Who's there"
Arthur Fleck - "It's the police, m'am! Your son's been hit by a drunk driver. He's dead."
The more I think about this movie, the more I don't like it.
Just saw it. He's good in it, I mean he does dark and weird well in any role, but the movie is no Taxi Driver.
He was a Comedian.
He was doing Comedy.
LOL
Thanks, Grumpy
Quote from: Josh on October 09, 2019, 03:37:23 PM
Q: If I've seen The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver is there any reason for me to go see this?
A: Now that I've seen Joker, I can answer that it's worth seeing if you want to see a fawning homage to those films.
This is really accurate and poignant:
"Where to even begin with this one? It's an epically stupid movie. I guess that's where to end. Should I start with its bafflingly dangerous and irresponsible depiction of mental illness? I'm not talking about the discourse about whether or not the film could incite violence—I assume we'll touch on that later—I'm referring to the way it centers a narrative on a troubled loner who suffers from some sort of unspecified psychosis, whose acts of violence escalate as he stops taking his medication, his mental state deteriorates, and he seizes a narrative that the world has turned its back on him. When there's already such stigma and misrepresentation about mental illness, the implied correlation between his mental state, medication, and extreme violence is outrageous." - Kevin Fallon
Meh, who cares? It's about Batman's enemy and anyone who doesn't know that is a retard.
He was a Comedian
He was doing Comedy
LOL
Quote from: Dylan Thomas on February 15, 2020, 12:03:16 PM
This is really accurate and poignant:
"Where to even begin with this one? It's an epically stupid movie. I guess that's where to end. Should I start with its bafflingly dangerous and irresponsible depiction of mental illness? I'm not talking about the discourse about whether or not the film could incite violence—I assume we'll touch on that later—I'm referring to the way it centers a narrative on a troubled loner who suffers from some sort of unspecified psychosis, whose acts of violence escalate as he stops taking his medication, his mental state deteriorates, and he seizes a narrative that the world has turned its back on him. When there's already such stigma and misrepresentation about mental illness, the implied correlation between his mental state, medication, and extreme violence is outrageous." - Kevin Fallon
If this is accurate about JOKER then it's accurate about A BEAUTIFUL MIND and basically every other movie that portrays mental illness I can think of. I think a fairer criticism would be something like "JOKER captures the general anxiety and increasing desperation of the lower class but by using mental illness in a general and unspecific way it inadvertently promotes certain stigmas that contradict the film's overall point and moral center, which is clearly on the side of the marginalized and downtrodden."
Clearly the film's heart is in the right place and the general argument that we should take care of the less fortunate among us is not something you would disagree with?
It is impossible for You People to enjoy things.
Got it.
I liked JOKER quite a bit.
There was one unnecessary thing I would change.
It was a good movie.
Quote from: Jor el on February 16, 2020, 02:03:59 PM
There was one unnecessary thing I would change.
Which is?
[spoiler]No need for the flashback montage showing that he had no relationship with Sophie[/spoiler]
I agree with that
Personally I didn't mind that, but I do see your point.
Quote from: renfield on February 16, 2020, 01:15:50 PM
Quote from: Dylan Thomas on February 15, 2020, 12:03:16 PM
This is really accurate and poignant:
"Where to even begin with this one? It's an epically stupid movie. I guess that's where to end. Should I start with its bafflingly dangerous and irresponsible depiction of mental illness? I'm not talking about the discourse about whether or not the film could incite violence—I assume we'll touch on that later—I'm referring to the way it centers a narrative on a troubled loner who suffers from some sort of unspecified psychosis, whose acts of violence escalate as he stops taking his medication, his mental state deteriorates, and he seizes a narrative that the world has turned its back on him. When there's already such stigma and misrepresentation about mental illness, the implied correlation between his mental state, medication, and extreme violence is outrageous." - Kevin Fallon
If this is accurate about JOKER then it's accurate about A BEAUTIFUL MIND and basically every other movie that portrays mental illness I can think of. I think a fairer criticism would be something like "JOKER captures the general anxiety and increasing desperation of the lower class but by using mental illness in a general and unspecific way it inadvertently promotes certain stigmas that contradict the film's overall point and moral center, which is clearly on the side of the marginalized and downtrodden."
Clearly the film's heart is in the right place and the general argument that we should take care of the less fortunate among us is not something you would disagree with?
A Beautiful Mind is actually a lot worse on this count, specifically because it was getting off the heavy psych drugs and developing other ways to cope with his voices was what happened in real life.
In the movie, Nash says it was new developments in drugs that made the voices go away, which is blatantly erroneous and at odds with science itself. This is especially dangerous because it disguises itself as biography.
I believe if we are going to care about those who are less fortunate, then we shouldn't promote messages that are false and perpetuate dangerous stigmas about those who are less fortunate.
In biopics of Batman supervillains. Got it.
Quote from: sleestak on February 17, 2020, 09:54:03 AM
In biopics of Batman supervillains. Got it.
They can put whatever nonsense they want in these movies.
It just makes it epically stupid, as the critic rightly noted.
I guess if you require full accuracy in movies. For me it was enjoyable as an origin story for Batman's murderous clown villain but hey, to each his own.
All the spaceships in STAR WARS are fake.
Quote from: sleestak on February 17, 2020, 11:37:13 AM
I guess if you require full accuracy in movies. For me it was enjoyable as an origin story for Batman's murderous clown villain but hey, to each his own.
Did I say I require full accuracy? No, you're putt9ng words in my mouth, and it's more nuanced than that.
It's kind of like if a woman in a movie hit and killed four people with her car, and the other characters are like, "well of course she's a terrible driver who accidentally kills people, she's a woman!"
It feels really frustrating to me at times, as most people would agree that the above inaccurate stereotype would be epicly stupid if it were used in a movie.
However, a lot of people are willing to give something just as epicly stupid like the scenario in Joker a free pass. Kevin Fallon is absolutely spot on by calling attention to just how bad this plot device is, on so many levels.
You so Crazy
Quote from: Dylan Thomas on February 17, 2020, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: sleestak on February 17, 2020, 11:37:13 AM
I guess if you require full accuracy in movies. For me it was enjoyable as an origin story for Batman's murderous clown villain but hey, to each his own.
Did I say I require full accuracy? No, you're putt9ng words in my mouth, and it's more nuanced than that.
It's kind of like if a woman in a movie hit and killed four people with her car, and the other characters are like, "well of course she's a terrible driver who accidentally kills people, she's a woman!"
It feels really frustrating to me at times, as most people would agree that the above inaccurate stereotype would be epicly stupid if it were used in a movie.
However, a lot of people are willing to give something just as epicly stupid like the scenario in Joker a free pass. Kevin Fallon is absolutely spot on by calling attention to just how bad this plot device is, on so many levels.
Sorry to gang up on you Andy but I gotta disagree with your take here for a couple reasons.
I don't think art is supposed to function as a translation of our moral code. The protagonists in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE do far more horrible things to women than accuse them of being bad drivers. Do we need a PSA at the end of that movie announcing "By the way, the artists behind this do not endorse this behavior." I'm not convinced JOKER is making the aesop fable you and Fallon are accusing it of ("and that's why you should keep the crazies medicated!"). Lots of stuff goes wrong for Joker and he snaps; if it's making any sort of general argument it's "hey if you keep fucking over poor people by denying them medicine, social services, job security, and keep them isolated from one another, they will probably eventually get mad and start saying Eat The Rich".
Now, good for you and Fallon for having a nuanced understanding of mental health but most people simply don't. I mentioned A BEAUTIFUL MIND because it's not just a comic book reskin of TAXI DRIVER, it was literally shown to me in a fucking psychology class in public school. This is by and large how people understand mental illness and it quite reactionary to call people EPICLY STUPID for not being as woke as you are about this. And the movie takes place in the fucking 1970s when people were even more ignorant than they are now!
the joker was acting in self defense.
Despite the fringe cultists that wanted to burn the film to the ground for daring to suggest that white male incels can feel alienated too, it was wildly financially successful and popular and was honored by those award ceremony thingies so there goes the theory that SJWs ruin everything I guess
Pull your head oot of your ass.
Birth of a Nation was only a movie too. Great storytelling!
Terrific action scenes too.
Superhero movies are not the place for moralizing, just stick to the "Good vs. Evil" plot lines.
/sarcasm
Do you really need every Scorsese movie to end with the protagonist eating spaghetti with ketchup and big letters come up on the screen and say "And THAT'S why you shouldn't do crimes!"
I mean I guess they kind of all do end like that.
Yeah, sorry, but that review posted previously* is way stupider than any dumb comic book killer clown origin story.
Crazy people are super touchy. Only... don't actually touch them.
*#retarded
I feel like I utterly vanquished Dinger in this debate but he probably never read what I posted
im sure thats what went down. i was thinking the same thing.
Quote from: renfield on March 11, 2020, 11:06:12 PM
I feel like I utterly vanquished Dinger in this debate but he probably never read what I posted
Oh please. Movies have an obligation to depict the mental illness of Batman's clown faced super villains in a responsible way. That's why this is a shitty movie.
Clearly it's because dinger's nuts and off the meds that made the voices go away.
Quote from: renfield on March 11, 2020, 11:06:12 PM
I feel like I utterly vanquished Dinger in this debate but he probably never read what I posted
No I read it. You didnt utterly vanquish me at all, I just really got the impression that you just don't grok the concept that myself and other advocates have been trying to make, and I just don't feel it's a good use of my time to continue.
It's tough feeling the constant frustration, honestly, that those who consider themselves liberals and progressives often seem to be completely unaware of systemic oppression towards those who have been given mental health diagnoses and how this intersects with other forms of oppression and prejudice. It's disappointing to me, and I've just largely stopped engaging in the types of discussions you and I had since I just don't know how to make any headway. I think that looking at how popular culture perpetuates these stigmas and prejudices might not be the ideal entry point for a lot of people for whom this may be a bit of a paradigm shift in their worldview.
Consequently I tend to spend my energies talking to people who have are either more open to thinking about things differently or who have experienced such oppression, stigma and prejudice first hand.
I'm thinking about writing a piece about the current Coronavirus restrictions, how in the currebt suspension of "non-essential services" for those in the mental health system, who is it that gets to define "non-essential." Pro-tip - not the people who actually receive or benefit from said "non-essential" services. That seems like a more productive discussion, no offense. I did enjoy our dialog for what it was, an exchange of ideas and perspectives, and I'd like to think I learned something through the exchange.
If you want to engage in a dialog around some of these topics, perhaps discussing a comic book villain isn't the best point of entry, and a drug rock message board isn't the best venue. PM me and we can figure out another way to continue this dialog.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3HGrwg1lDWzxS/giphy.gif)