Is a vinyl single a tough sell for an unknown/unsigned band?
We were thinking about ordering 100 7" vinyl singles to sell at gigs. A local audio engineer is offering us a deal. It'd be an all analog signal path, mastered the old-fashioned way, and hand-pressed.
They'd be priced at $10 and we'd have to sell them all to break even.
How hard is it to sell vinyl singles at gigs? Or through bandcamp? How do punk bands typically do it?
Bad idea for a first timer?
If it were me, I'd most definitely pass on that deal. $1000 for 100 7-inches seems really high. $10 is just too much to ask for an unknown/unsigned band.
Pirates Press has this special:
500 Colored Vinyl 7" Package - ONLY $1400
(includes all mastering & plating, CMYK labels & jackets)
http://www.piratespress.com/specials.html (http://www.piratespress.com/specials.html)
That's $2.80 instead of $10/per.
I included the cost of recording into the deal. The cost of just the vinyl is $625. You're probably right though - better to buy in bulk and sell cheap as an unknown.
But that's 400 additional records sitting in a box in your closet, if they don't sell/band breaks up/etc. A small run is usually more expensive.
I think 10 bucks/gotta sell 'em all just to break even is too expensive, but 500 records might be too many pieces. But I don't know about your band (yet).
Quote from: Ombrenuit on January 30, 2014, 12:50:49 PM
I included the cost of recording into the deal. The cost of just the vinyl is $625. You're probably right though - better to buy in bulk and sell cheap as an unknown.
That makes a little more sense, but $6.25/record is still pretty steep. If you're comfortable asking for $10 for a 7", then go for it. Personally I think that's about $5 too much. You might have to do what most startup bands do and just eat the recording costs.
Ombrenuit pm if you want. i run a small record label and have been putting out vinyl for my own band as well as others since 1999. i can offer you some advice. few quick things.
plan on not making much money. i almost always operate at a loss, kind of. i move alot of what i press through trades, that pads my distro box and eventually i sell stuff at shows as well as consignment at my local record store. its a labor of love.
i personally love vinyl and ive grown up with it, so i do it because its important to me. im convinced its the only true way to release music that will stand the test of time. digital sucks. cd/cdrs/downloads, its all great for convience but in the end, only vinyl has staying power. vinyl sales are up big and the vinyl revolution is in full swing.
i sell 12" vinyl for $12 and 7" vinyl for $6. if you are face to face with me at a show, chances are ill hook you up with a deal.
i think the price you were quoted is a bit steep. there are better deals out there. i highly recomend putting out split 7"ers. that way you possibly can split the cost and you get better exposure especially if the band you split with is more popular than your band. its win win for everyone.
http://continuumrecords.bigcartel.com/ (http://continuumrecords.bigcartel.com/)
I wouldn't do it if I were you. You should create the demand before you create the product or you WILL end up with a box of shit in your closet that no one wants. If you're asking about it here then that means you probably don't have people beating down your door for it. Let's assume 1000 people want your music in their ears, which is probably a gross overestimation if your band is anything like mine. MAYBE 20% of those will be into vinyl. And MAYBE 20% of that 20% will be into 7" singles. That's only 40 people out of your 1000 fans. I collect vinyl and I would never buy a single. I just sat down to jam, now I have to get up again to flip it over? Now I have to get up AGAIN to put something else on? F that. Spend your time/money building buzz about the band and print releases once people already want them.
I agree with creating the demand first and at that point you might as well do a 10" ep or 12" full length.
although agentofoblivion makes some valid points. i do not agree with the point about the 7". you get alot of bang for your buck with 7" vinyl. especially if they are splits. you can spend not alot of money and check out/take chances on tons of bands without committing to buying a expensive full length album. also since time is limited, most bands put their best foot forward on 7" vinyl. no room for filler. as far as the flipping of records, point taken, but thats more about laziness and maybe relocating your turntable closer to where you sit. not a good reason to not like 7"ers. imo.
since no-one has mentioned it yet I'm gonna suggest tapes, they are super cheap to make and people like em! If you send them out to blogs/sites you might get reviews etc and attract the interest of a small label who will offer to put it out on vinyl...
mortlock and Jem have far more experience than me putting out releases. I speak strictly from the point of view of a lazy consumer and a cheap ass musician.
Thanks again for your valuable input guys.
Sounds like a 7" single is a bad plan. I myself have never bought a 7" from an unknown. It doesn't help that Ohio has a small market neither.
Ultimately wanted to try this studio / engineer out before we did a full length with him and thought a single might make the experiment low-cost.
7" single is a great collector's item. It used to be one of the best ways to introduce your band to people, but now it's probably better for bands who already have a following.
Quote from: JemDooM on January 31, 2014, 12:59:28 PM
since no-one has mentioned it yet I'm gonna suggest tapes, they are super cheap to make and people like em! If you send them out to blogs/sites you might get reviews etc and attract the interest of a small label who will offer to put it out on vinyl...
so true..tapes are great. my band just got approached to do a cassette. so here it is. HADES MINING CO.//UNEQUALTOYOU split tape out soon on HUMAN BEARD RECORDS..
ive always been a big advocate of self financing some of your own releases. especially early on in the bands existance. you cant expect people to 'sign' your band and spend their money on putting out releases for you, if you arent even willing to invest in yourself..
Quote from: Jake on January 30, 2014, 12:19:14 PM
If it were me, I'd most definitely pass on that deal. $1000 for 100 7-inches seems really high. $10 is just too much to ask for an unknown/unsigned band.
Pirates Press has this special:
500 Colored Vinyl 7" Package - ONLY $1400
(includes all mastering & plating, CMYK labels & jackets)
http://www.piratespress.com/specials.html (http://www.piratespress.com/specials.html)
That's $2.80 instead of $10/per.
Or, you could go Flexi which I think people would buy, if only cuz flexi's are rad, from Pirates Press
you could probably make money on the deal selling them for $5 a pop, depending on how much recording ends up costing
http://www.piratespress.com/cms/flexi-records/flexi-special (http://www.piratespress.com/cms/flexi-records/flexi-special)
1000 flexi's for $1000
$5 seems high for a flexi..
Does it? I mean that was a shot in the dark. $3 seem fair? I mean if its a buck a piece and I can't imagine recording one song being more than a couple hundred than you could double your money easily.
I can barely get $5 for a vinyl 7" most of the time. I think $3 is fair for a flexi..
What is a flexi?
I've been thinking about this topic for a while myself, mainly because we're looking to record some stuff and release it.
Personally, I'm more of fan of release your stuff digitally for free (pay-what-you-want bandcamp thing) and then do a physical release that looks good. If it's your first release, tape is the way to go IMO. It's just so easy, doesn't cost an arm and a leg and you can make it a real nice product (case in point: Jem's band or any other tape that looks good). If a label wants to release that on vinyl, great. As a band you can still chip in then to make it happen but it will cost you less because the overall costs will be split. In essence, I think for most physical releases tapes are great. As a band, you have more control over the overall product due to the cost thing and the amount of creative control. I don't know about you but I like to keep stuff close to the chest.
A lot of great advices above! But if you're willing to loose some money, wether it's a cassette or a 7, just go for it.
In some sence I think it's better to have released something than waiting.
One of my upcoming goals is to release a 7 this year!
A split would be great otherwise one of our own. But perhaps 50-100.
Yes it will probably cost more than it's worth but after releasing two cds that's no one is buying then what the hell!
For our own sake mostly but still, 7s are damn cool!
Anyone up for a split? :D
I want to do pay what you want(or free) on Bandcamp, home done CDRs probably with black and white self photocopied and cut inserts in cheap clear plastic sleeves, and a limited run of home made cassettes if I get a half way decent side by side cassette unit to make them on. $2 or something for the CDRs and tapes at local shows(free for friends) and maybe business card sized slips of paper to hand out with the Bandcamp info.
You can get 1000 7"s for $999 hand-pressed out here in Columbus. That doesn't include packaging like the flexi deal though.
I do not like cassette tapes one bit. Not because they're obsolete technology, brought back by nostalgic hipster types. But because they sound awful.
Quote from: Ombrenuit on February 01, 2014, 04:12:48 PM
You can get 1000 7"s for $999 hand-pressed out here in Columbus. That doesn't include packaging like the flexi deal though.
way too many. you can have a reasonable profit margin with a modest pressing of 250 to 300 pressed. if you sell all, youll make money. you only need to sell approx 60 to 70% to break even. im happy if i can get close to breaking even. at the end of the day, you still get the satisfaction of having the record out. more than most bands will ever do.
Tapes!?! Jesus they were awful back when they were popular.
cassettes rock!!
Same here, imo tapes rule. As for the sound, that's part of the attraction for me. Nothing better than some 4-track recordings released on a tape.
A predominance of HISSSSS is an attractive characteristic for you? Or do you just like how the whole thing sounds worse each time you play it?
If you really, really need to identify yourself with some quirky, obsolete media, you could at least pick one that doesn't sound like balls.
http://www.obsoletemedia.org/audio/ (http://www.obsoletemedia.org/audio/)
I don't know if this would work for everybody, but a couple of the bands around my town that actually seem to sell well have a specific approach. They make very small quantities and have very labor intensive packaging that looks awesome. One of them has released two 7". In once case the package is made of acrylic with their name seemingly laser etched in and the other is made of wood with the info carved into it. It all looks very professional and sleek. If you're going to do a limited run 7" you might as well make it look as supremely badass as possible.
http://jackbuck.bandcamp.com/
I can picture the conversation now...
"Did you check out Caleb's new (ironic) metal band's merch? They've got PBR branded mustache wax and their new EP on tape. Yeah, their demo was released on answering machine micro cassette tape, but their EP is on Dictabelt. Nothing beats the analog warmth of a good Dictabelt recording."
http://www.obsoletemedia.org/dictabelt/ (http://www.obsoletemedia.org/dictabelt/)
Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2014, 11:24:50 AM
A predominance of HISSSSS is an attractive characteristic for you? Or do you just like how the whole thing sounds worse each time you play it?
If you really, really need to identify yourself with some quirky, obsolete media, you could at least pick one that doesn't sound like balls.
http://www.obsoletemedia.org/audio/ (http://www.obsoletemedia.org/audio/)
::)
Whatever dude, difference of opinion I guess.
Imo, cassettes are a great medium for one-off weird stuff that wouldn't be released otherwise. If Electric Wizard released a bunch of 4 track demos on cassette as a collector's item I'd probably buy it knowing full well the sound quality would be shit. That's part of the charm. But a proper release? No thanks.
I like the sound of tapes too, it's like comparing the ambience of say the hostel films with an old hammer film...
Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2014, 11:24:50 AM
A predominance of HISSSSS is an attractive characteristic for you? Or do you just like how the whole thing sounds worse each time you play it?
Vinyl is noisy too, and also degrades over time.
I really hope my Entombed cassette tape will last forever.
8 track tape would get my vote, but cassette is a close second. I used to work in radio and we had some awesome tape machines and you could make a tape recording that sounded really really good. a lot of it has to do with setting the record levels, you want it to hit into the red slightly but you need good quality tape too.
I know a few 20 somethings that prefer cassettes to CDs and downloads so I don't see the harm in making a few available. People giving you actual money for your music is a good thing.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on February 03, 2014, 09:54:17 PM
I know a few 20 somethings that prefer cassettes to CDs and downloads so I don't see the harm in making a few available. People giving you actual money for your music is a good thing.
What's stopping them from making their own cassettes from digital / CDs?
Quote from: Ombrenuit on February 04, 2014, 09:04:27 AM
Quote from: liquidsmoke on February 03, 2014, 09:54:17 PM
I know a few 20 somethings that prefer cassettes to CDs and downloads so I don't see the harm in making a few available. People giving you actual money for your music is a good thing.
What's stopping them from making their own cassettes from digital / CDs?
Nothing, some probably do but they'd rather go home with a cassette from you if they have the money to spend.
Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2014, 11:36:40 AM
I can picture the conversation now...
"Did you check out Caleb's new (ironic) metal band's merch? They've got PBR branded mustache wax and their new EP on tape. Yeah, their demo was released on answering machine micro cassette tape, but their EP is on Dictabelt. Nothing beats the analog warmth of a good Dictabelt recording."
http://www.obsoletemedia.org/dictabelt/ (http://www.obsoletemedia.org/dictabelt/)
ha ha ha
I'm enjoying the slagging of tapes here, guess you guys pay no attention to the huge resurgance of tapes in underground metal (and punk) over the last bunch of years. We released our first album on tape and sold out about 180 copies fairly easily. What we sold through bandcamp had a digi download along with it so you have the choice of high quality digital along with the analogue tape. They're also very affordable and next to no time limit on how much music you can get on.
Back to vinyl, 10 dollars is way too much for a 7", 8 dollars would be max I'd charge but I'm sure I've paid more for an established band that I really wanted to have. I wouldn't go near flexis as they always sound shit. Also avoid 33rpm 7"s for heavy music as it'll sound crap too.
If you really need something either tape or cdr and put loads of effort into the artwork. I really like something like a fancy poster along with a cdr.
That's my 2 cents.
I'm not saying that cassette tapes won't sell -- they do seem to be the du jour scenester medium.
I'm just saying that they sound like dirty buttholes. And I'm only saying that because I've owned like 500,000 over my lifetime.
evidently, more than one type of tape has completely stymied you. best advice, dont touch any kind of tape ever again ijs.
bwaaahaaahaa
edit: ps. I heart my "Psychoblaster and the Mis-use of Power" cassette. heh
Why not do both? tapes and cd's....myself I like tape!
Any cassette duplication places you'd recommend?
Honestly I would preferably buy vinyl but do most of my listening in MP3 on my phone so would gladly buy tape or 8-track or flexi-disc or sheet music as long as it comes with a slip of paper for a digital download.
my record player is so old and knackered it makes tapes sound like the holy grail of high quality compared to vinyl in my home ;)
Quote from: Ombrenuit on February 06, 2014, 06:26:46 PM
Any cassette duplication places you'd recommend?
People seem to like NAC, I haven't used them, but they do a lot of business.
http://nationalaudiocompany.com (http://nationalaudiocompany.com)
i too have heard that, but i havent used them either..
Remember when Steve Albini was complaining about how CDs sound like shit, compared to vinyl... because the analog waveform is a smooth slope when you magnify it, but a digital waveform looks like stairsteps. But nobody seems to talk about that any more. Maybe because your ears can't hear those artifacts. Anyway, high fidelity isn't one of the hallmarks of heavy rock. And there are lots of steps along the way where your sound quality will take a hit, from crummy amps, bad microphones, lousy recording interfaces, bad mixing, bad mastering, substandard pressing/dubs, and in the end somebody listens to your record on their 1 inch computer speakers, or with bookshelf speakers from KMart. Fidelity almost doesn't matter at all. Some of my favorite records sound like shit (Hell Awaits, anything on SST, etc). For some music, bad fidelity is considered a feature, not a bug (trebly black metal, blown out bass for hip-hop). Don't worry about it, get your music out on whatever format you can afford.
Quote from: Lumpy on February 20, 2014, 09:46:22 PM
Remember when Steve Albini was complaining about how CDs sound like shit, compared to vinyl... because the analog waveform is a smooth slope when you magnify it, but a digital waveform looks like stairsteps.
Fully don't remember this.
That was the mid-90s.
the mid 90s are a little fuzzy for me too.
Quote from: mortlock on February 21, 2014, 01:38:14 AM
the mid 90s are a little fuzzy for me too.
I miss the 90's :(