By non-vocalists, I mean people who sing AND play (more than a tambourine) ;)
A fair bit I guess. Usually a couple of drafts. Just knock something out fairly quick on the first one to get the phrasing, cadence, melody fleshed out. Sing it that way for a few jams, then go back and refine the awkward parts.
I think if you're going to be writing lyrics/vocal parts.. you really ought to sing them as you write them.. even if you're not the one who is ultimately going to perform those parts.. even if you don't like how your voice sounds or if you lack power or pitch or if that means singing it an octave down cos you just don't have the range or whatever.
you really don't know when a vocal part is going to sound cool or not til you actually hear it over the riff it's going over
when non-singers write vocal parts and then give them to someone else to perform without giving them any creative input into it, you end up with Yngwie Malmsteen Disease - ie the lyrics and their delivery just end up sounding cheesy and forced and all a bit stupid, because the singer is doing their best but failing with something that just doesn't work naturally as a vocal part
I put a shit-ton of effort into lyrics. I find it to be the hardest part of songwriting. Even when my words are all out ridiculous, as they often are, I think it works and sounds right with minimal cheese
I suck at writing, period. I start with simplistic ideas which form a basic outline of what I'm trying to communicate and little by little I mold these turds into something resembling lyrics. Once in awhile there is a bit of something that sounds like something someone wrote who knows how to write but it's mostly very basic. The process takes hours and hours for each song over the course of weeks or months. I'm no poet but I've heard worse. It's given me a whole new appreciation for lyricists. Some singers can make simple and even dumb lyrics sound much better than they actually are though. I'm not one of those singers but I do put serious effort into writing vocal melodies and sorting out where in the song I want the vocal parts to be while trying to avoid excessively simplistic or complex vocal parts considering that I have to also play guitar while I sing.
The whole process start to finish is a huge pain in the ass and is one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life but when I actually get it all sort of down and can perform it without messing up too much and I like it the work seems worthwhile. If people outside the band like it that will be even more awesome.
Quote from: chille01 on December 11, 2011, 10:50:15 PM
A fair bit I guess. Usually a couple of drafts. Just knock something out fairly quick on the first one to get the phrasing, cadence, melody fleshed out. Sing it that way for a few jams, then go back and refine the awkward parts.
i do something like this. i jam in the riffs then i start thinking about the way the words are going to fit in there. sometimes i will write them when not playing (not around my guitar) then refine/fit them together when i have a guitar near me.
as for lyrical content, mine are pretty opaque. they mean something very specific to ME, but on the outside it might sound like a song about a bad party, when in reality its about my best friend getting addicted to blow, ruining a band i was in, and having to move across the country.
Why would I be writing lyrics if I was a non-vocalist?
Would I be writing them for the non-guitarist or the non-drummer?
Totally depends on how much time I have to put into it and if I get an idea. Some songs I struggle getting words to paper and it takes a month to write lyrics. Other times I'll get something in my head and it takes a half hour. It's not really about "effort"... More about whether or not I get a spark that sets something off.
i guess i qualify as a non-vocalist since i do it all. i am very intense about my lyrics and when i'm hashing out lyrics, i'm hashing out lyrics.
here's a freebie, xmas carol(o little town of bethlehem)
o little town of clev-eh-land, you're such an ugly sight
chuck-holed roads wind everywhere amid the urban blight
yet in the dark street corner shines the everlasting light
from the river in mid-town, that's burning nice and bright.
heh
edit: one of my biggest hobbies is "evil weird al" treatments of songs like this xmas carol. i have done many already
Rhyming is near impossible for me. It's hard enough to come up with lyrics that don't sound like a complete joke. If I'm trying to rhyme words the whole thing usually turns ridiculous immediately.
I put next to no effort into the actual lyrics. I write what I call "Rob Zombie lyrics" where timing, rhythm and pattern are more important than the words making sense. The words themselves are more of a stream of (un)conciousness type of thing but they tend to turn out where they seem to make sense in a cryptic way...
Example :
Bones scatter the ground
Of ghosts you never have found
And as you awoke
You see life vanish in smoke
I put a lot of effort into lyrics. It takes me the longest out of every part of the songwriting process. It's been a while since I sang in a band (and even longer since I just sang without playing bass or guitar), but usually I would still be working on them even after we started gigging with a song. I usually don't start writing lyrics until all the music is done, though sometimes it does get rearranged around the vocals a bit, and work out a lot of the vocal patterns before I get actual words. Only a few times in the last 15 years have I ever written lyrics by themselves and then fit them to a song later. All those times I knew they were for a very specific genre that I had an idea of how the cadence would go even before the song was written, but I probably still did a little editing to make the vocals feel right.
That being said, I don't think I've written any lyrics in a few years and only sparsely before then for a few years. I kind of got burnt out, after being the main lyricists/vocalist in most of the bands I was in for years. I'd like to start again, I just kind of go blank now when thinking of something to write about. It's a lot easier for me if I have some kind of theme in mind beforehand that I can use as a writing exercise, as opposed to plumbing the depths of my soul for something to bare.
Quote from: neighbor664 on December 12, 2011, 09:41:13 AM
Why would I be writing lyrics if I was a non-vocalist?
Would I be writing them for the non-guitarist or the non-drummer?
Lot's of examples here. I think Angus and Malcolm have been writing most of the AC/DC lyrics for years. Didn't Geezer used to write all of the Sabbath lyrics?
Quote from: BrianDamage on December 12, 2011, 02:03:30 PM
I put next to no effort into the actual lyrics. I write what I call "Rob Zombie lyrics" where timing, rhythm and pattern are more important than the words making sense. The words themselves are more of a stream of (un)conciousness type of thing but they tend to turn out where they seem to make sense in a cryptic way...
Example :
Bones scatter the ground
Of ghosts you never have found
And as you awoke
You see life vanish in smoke
This is the type of thing I have not any success with at all and yet people like Robert Hunter and Jimi Hendrix were masters of it.
I'VE GOT A HIGH TUNED .45, SEVEN IN THE MAG, ONE IN THE PIPE, HAMMER BACK, OPEN EYES CLOSED SHUT, THE FINAL THING YOU'LL SEE IS MUZZLE SMOKE.
I don't write lyrics for that exact reason ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quote from: chille01 on December 12, 2011, 04:15:37 PM
Didn't Geezer used to write all of the Sabbath lyrics?
Shhhhhh! Ozzy and Sharon don't want people knowing that!
Quote from: SunnO))) on December 13, 2011, 12:37:20 AM
I'VE GOT A HIGH TUNED .45, SEVEN IN THE MAG, ONE IN THE PIPE, HAMMER BACK, OPEN EYES CLOSED SHUT, THE FINAL THING YOU'LL SEE IS MUZZLE SMOKE.
I don't write lyrics for that exact reason ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why not? Those are perfectly good rap metal lyrics ;D
This is my shortest one-
EARLY DEATH STEALING HIS LIFE
HIS WORK INCOMPLETE
A VESSEL COMES FORWARD
PROVIDING A PASSAGE
BORN AGAIN AWARE YET WITHOUT SPEECH
WITH AN INFANT BRAIN HE WAITS
CONTENT FOR NOW TO SUCKLE AND TO SLEEP
UNTIL THE TIME HIS WORK MAY BEGIN AGAIN
I put a little thought into lyrics but it's more into melody and how to make them fit with my playing than their actual meaning. Usually I just pick a topic and loosely rant about it. I like to write kinda cheesy too cause thats the sort of doom lyrics I dig. Completely over the top pessimism and anger.
it works best to be in a psychosis of zealous, urgency that could alter the course of humanity in either real time or lifetime spanning chunks and believe it. However when you come out of it, you just live your way into some new understandings and see how that works for ya.
Why not just sing in tongues a bunch of random stuff that fits the song and then attempt to transcribe it later. Have someone else in the band write down what they think you're saying.
Quote from: fallen on December 13, 2011, 05:22:35 PM
Why not just sing in tongues a bunch of random stuff that fits the song and then attempt to transcribe it later. Have someone else in the band write down what they think you're saying.
that's awesome.
Quote from: neighbor664 on December 12, 2011, 09:41:13 AM
Why would I be writing lyrics if I was a non-vocalist?
Would I be writing them for the non-guitarist or the non-drummer?
Geezer Butler: "Why should I do it? I'm not the bloody singer!"
Quote from: justinhedrick on December 13, 2011, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: fallen on December 13, 2011, 05:22:35 PM
Why not just sing in tongues a bunch of random stuff that fits the song and then attempt to transcribe it later. Have someone else in the band write down what they think you're saying.
that's awesome.
Sounds closest to my methodology, 'cept Gzus don't write.
If you are writing words,
disembodied from melody and song,
you are not writing lyrics
but you are probably writing poetry.
Wasn't that Jim Morrison's thing?
I like a bit of spoken word over some music, but then it's nice to blend it in as well. Lots of bands do that, well a few I listen to.
Quote from: chille01 on December 12, 2011, 04:15:37 PM
Quote from: neighbor664 on December 12, 2011, 09:41:13 AM
Why would I be writing lyrics if I was a non-vocalist?
Would I be writing them for the non-guitarist or the non-drummer?
Lot's of examples here. I think Angus and Malcolm have been writing most of the AC/DC lyrics for years. Didn't Geezer used to write all of the Sabbath lyrics?
Yeah Geezer wrote the words, but he left it to Ozzy come up with the melody and phrasing, and Ozzy had a bit of a free hand to chop things around a bit to make it work. It wasn't like he was just given the parts completely written and then just told to sing them. I remember Iommi saying that Ozzy had a very predictable way of writing melodies - often he would write a riff and have a very close idea of what kind of melody Ozzy would want to sing over it before he even heard what he'd come up with.
It's difficult. Really the hardest part of the whole songwriting thing, we've tried to have our drummer write lyrics but he didn't really care that someone should be able to play and sing it. So since I do all the riffing, singing and guitar playing I'm the one who do the lyrics. It's also a little bit challenging because English isn't my first language, but I do want to reach out to as many as possible. I want my lyrics to have a meaning not just be random nonsense.
yes , much work. i decided to upload the 2 songs i probably sweated the most blood over. i believe the lyrics are killer, as they tell the story reasonably coherantly, flow, rhyme, and are comical.
It's funny, that seems to be my bag, just fucking around with no respect for anything, like usual (sounds like L7 lrics heh)
anyway, i put a lot of effort into both these tunes, hope you get a laugh out of them.
"Don't Look"
so this one is a 4 track sequenced piece. i only started playing guitar srsly 9-10 years ago, but ive been playing with midi since you had to write your own shit in C for DOS 5 and finally cakewalk came out with a text mode midi sequencer heh. old skool wow, but i got some things done in it, and then when win3 and the matching cakewalk came out , off to the races 8D
so the emo's ticked me off. fuckin' whiney ass punks..lol, well anyway, i decided to out emo the lot of them and take away all reason to snivel. (but the lyrics came out unreal, in the context. only regret:i had to use dread twice, was up against the wall and couldnt solve it)
[soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/doktordeath/dontlook[/soundcloud]
"Feed My Face"
this one is part sequence and hd recorder kludge..production value is in the red lol, but it worked, great. i love this. my version of turn the page, inspired by metallica's lame rendition. so that ticked me off. fuckin slackers, listen to the yawn solo in meh-tallic -o-cized version(i like that album, though,with all the covers
[soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/doktordeath/feed-my-face[/soundcloud]
Little or none they always come out bad so I give up.
I like to let the singer write the words then sing them acapella as I fumble around for the right riffs/chords to go with it.
Quote from: EddieMullet on December 14, 2011, 08:27:48 PM
Little or none they always come out bad so I give up.
I like to let the singer write the words then sing them acapella as I fumble around for the right riffs/chords to go with it.
Cool, so you do words first.
words come first some of the time, but i think i generally put the words to the music
in both these cases, the words got formed to the music (if you were directing that at me).
the sequenced song had the attitude in mind while i was sequencing
of course the weird al stuff always starts with the music first.
maybe trying out some weird al may be good practice for refitting words for people struggling or not comfy with word-smithing . you get to be the human thesauraus real quick like
if i get hardcore, i will write out a list of every word i can think of that rhymes with a certain ending, then if i see enough of what i need i'll try to ram-jam it together somehow to get the timing to fit also.
and the old joke, never use orange at the end of a line. the subtle hint here is use word sets that have lots of rhymes. that helps vs like only 3 other words in the language rhyme with something, pretty dodgy success rate
im going to try to whip out an example.
maybe i want to work around the word "say"...there's a ton: play, day, may, bay, slay, stay, away, way, they, tray, clay, flay, bray, today, ..just load up. then think through the theme of the message. maybe i'm going to tell someone off.
and i'm the jerk or so you say
well listen to the jackass bray
the loudmouth tard that's in my way
im just about to wreck your day.
pro-pain owes me for one song now harr dee harr.
if this set just doesnt work, try a different set. but save all your rhyme word sets and dont use the same one too much. HTH :)
also, maybe i can take a shot at helping someone with lyrics if they are really buffaloed. might be worth a shot...
I generally write lyrics at work and guitar parts at home. Then the trick is to match the lyrics up to guitar parts that fit or vice versa. Actually for one song I had the general idea in mind while writing the guitar parts and then wrote the lyrics so they would fit.
I usually end up writing the first round of lyrics in conjunction with the music. IE; I'll come up with a basic verse and chorus musically, but then I'll start trying to put in some lyrics (or at least melodies) over that verse and chorus before I get too worried about specific transitions, dynamic changes, bridges etc. My reasoning is that the lyrics will likely influence the music, as much as the music influences the lyrics. The transition might be vocally driven. The band drops out for the last two bars of the verse and the vocals carry it solo into the chorus, stuff like that. Or the length of verses and choruses might change, the rhythm might morph to punch harder on specific words etc. etc. I try and think of it all as part of one song, and build it all up at the same time. I used to write and arrange all of the music first and then layer lyrics on top, but for the last couple of years I've been doing it this way and have been more happy with the end results. Your mileage may vary, but this method works well for me.
I put a lot of effort into all of it.
Why would I do part of my job half-assed?
Quote from: RacerX on December 17, 2011, 09:37:37 AM
I put a lot of effort into all of it.
Why would I do part of my job half-assed?
Well as they say
Quote from: LeonHaywood
Don't push it, don't force it
Let it happen naturally
It will surely happen
If it was meant to be
Quote from: Hemisaurus on December 17, 2011, 10:30:40 AM
Quote from: RacerX on December 17, 2011, 09:37:37 AM
I put a lot of effort into all of it.
Why would I do part of my job half-assed?
Well as they say
Quote from: LeonHaywood
Don't push it, don't force it
Let it happen naturally
It will surely happen
If it was meant to be
Bullshit.
Effort does not necessarily = struggle.
"Meant to be" = magical thinking.
magical thinking ???
Since I'm starting to sing in my new project I definitely take a lot of care in pride in my lyrics but melody and phrasing always win out which is why it isn't necessarily poetry. Despite all of this care I will probably never write anything as memorable as the shit Buzzo just blurts out and that's probably true for everyone else on here:
"Like siz the well known water
Like siz the well known war"
Quote from: Hemisaurus on December 17, 2011, 11:06:51 AM
magical thinking ???
Usually it's regular thinking. But when we're doing our music it will be "magical thinking". Otherwise it can just be beats and patterns to no avail of hypnotic trance without implanted memory collective spiritual chamber of ideas reflected in symbiotic reflection of recognition through repetition AND magic.
I think bass drones are magical then. ;D
I mean, who says you can't make up your own fuckin' words and phrases?
lungsmen? hasheehian? weedian? ring a bell?
Just make shit up, so what if your spellcheck goes wild.
Quote from: SunnO))) on December 19, 2011, 11:43:26 PM
I mean, who says you can't make up your own fuckin' words and phrases?
lungsmen? hasheehian? weedian? ring a bell?
Just make shit up, so what if your spellcheck goes wild.
ha ha ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha i can make up names but not really words ahahahahahahahahahahaha
LUNGSMENhahahahahahha wow
i write 'melodies' when we are writing songs. then as the song progresses i start to form actual words/stories/sense.
then when we record I finalize all the lyrics.
ive been playing a few songs for 2 years that I still have no concrete lyrics for. only rough sketches. every show they change a little bit.
I've started writing a new song and I'm questioning different approaches to lyrics and their placement. We are a power trio and because I play guitar and sing I don't like having lyrics throughout entire songs like many bands with dedicated singers do. Part of it is that it's hard to remember 20+ lines of lyrics. One trick is to repeat them 2 or 3 times, another is to have instrumental parts containing riffs that were previously sung over or will be in the future. This is a bit hard to describe. I kind of wonder if people find those approaches boring. I think playing a riff/part without vocals over it first and later having the vocals come in helps to build the song but maybe it's better to have certain riffs always be layered with vocals and just write more vocal-less riffs so the song has less repeating sections. There are many different ways to go about this and there are no rules but I'm wondering if some of our material flows oddly considering where the sometimes sparse vocals are placed in the songs.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on September 05, 2013, 05:23:24 AM
I've started writing a new song and I'm questioning different approaches to lyrics and their placement. We are a power trio and because I play guitar and sing I don't like having lyrics throughout entire songs like many bands with dedicated singers do. Part of it is that it's hard to remember 20+ lines of lyrics. One trick is to repeat them 2 or 3 times, another is to have instrumental parts containing riffs that were previously sung over or will be in the future. This is a bit hard to describe. I kind of wonder if people find those approaches boring. I think playing a riff/part without vocals over it first and later having the vocals come in helps to build the song but maybe it's better to have certain riffs always be layered with vocals and just write more vocal-less riffs so the song has less repeating sections. There are many different ways to go about this and there are no rules but I'm wondering if some of our material flows oddly considering where the sometimes sparse vocals are placed in the songs.
Sounds very similar to my approach.
Quote from: moose23 on September 05, 2013, 09:04:14 AM
Sounds very similar to my approach.
What is your approach?
Another factor that came to mind today on my way home from work listening to some Mirror of Deception was story telling vs more poetic/statement/feelings/etc lyrics. If you are telling a story it can be odd to repeat lyric sections where as if you are saying something Bobby like such as 'cause i'm not the living you soon will be giving' it seems more okay to repeat it, even if it's not part of the chorus.
So following that if you select certain parts/riffs to be lyrics sections always they probably shouldn't be placed into the song until the message fits the plot flow of the song if they tell a story in chronological order. Of course the order could be told otherwise too.
I think I'm going to strive for more lyrical sections in songs that are not as related to telling the actions of songs that tell a story of events so I can repeat lyrics more. This will require a lot more experimentation with words. I hardly know how to explain this stuff because my technical knowledge of writing is so limited.
+1 for writing lyrics at work.
The other method I use is a melody first approach. I'll record vocal melodies with nonsense lyrics and listen to them in the car. Sounds crazy but listen to them long enough and your subconscious will start to make out of it ::). The song basically writes itself. YMMV depending on your sanity.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on December 13, 2011, 04:59:36 AM
WITH AN INFANT BRAIN HE WAITS
CONTENT FOR NOW TO SUCKLE AND TO SLEEP
UNTIL THE TIME HIS WORK MAY BEGIN AGAIN
yes!