As per Mr G.Niggzy, going to try and categorize some of the amps out there, by general tone, circuit design, tube usage, please chip in with suggestions / corrections / additions :)
Marshall Family - Marshall, Sovtek, Peavey Windsor & Butcher & VTM, Bugera 1960 & 1990, Laney, Garnet Deputy, Red Bear, Soldano, Traynor, Narb, Park, Kitchen, Splawn
Orange Family - Orange, Matamp, Electric / Green
Fender Family - Fender, Mesa Boogie, Peavey Valveking, Dumble, Univox, Elk, Garnet Gnome, Peavey Classics, Plush, Earth
Boogie Family - Mesa Boogie, Peavey XXL/XXX & Ultras, Bugera 333
Hiwatt Family - Sound City, Reeves, Harry Joyce, Nolan, Roost
Ampeg Family - Ampeg, Bugera BVV3000
8)
It should be the Matamp family not the Orange family. Also...add Hiwatt/Sound City branch. Since so many of us own authentic Dumble's we should add that to the Fender family. Maybe an Ampeg branch as well.
I always get HiWatt and Laney confused :-[
Marshall - Laney, Garnet Deputy, Red Bear
Fender - Univox ?, Elk, Garnet Gnome
Hiwatt - Sound City, Reeves, Harry Joyce, Nolan, Roost ?
An amp circuit evolutionary tree would be badass, esp. w/ the oddball dead end designs - Gibsons, Selmers, Supros, Burmans, plus one off designs from all the manufacturers already mentioned.
If we do this, we finna do it right. We can make an infographic, we have fucking GD's here. Research and no-bullshit.
The Boogie family is missing a buncha links in the Peavey portion. Boogies, Peavey XXX, Peavey Ultra+, Peavey Ultra120/60 etc
We should probably set areas for outright clones or ripoffs. Subtle clones/slight circuitry lifts, eventually leading up or down to the unique designs/originals.
Marshall gets the Peavey Butcher, and every other company that has bumped a fucking Marshall circuit in some way, Sovtek, Soldano, Electroharmonix :D
Based on some investigation by myself, my amp tech, and even verified by some dudes in an amp forum (who traced an EA MV unit, and built a clone), the EA's may be different enough to not consider them part of the Orange/Matamp family. He Who Shall Not Be Named has been saying for years that the schematics for his amps were 100% original (at least, not full on Matamp clones), and it looks like he was not lying.
Yeah, I would possibly include some of the weird Marshall variants and clones from the 70's and 80's/90's. Some of the Peaveys (butcher/vtm), Laneys, Carvins(X100b), red bears, the Lee Jackson stuff, Soldano, ect...
Bugera came out with the tri-rec recently too. Not super relevant but a boogie nonetheless.
And aren't traynors based on Fender/Marshall designs?
Traynors are Marshalls, pretty much, too.
It all started with Fender, for Marshall, though...
the MV units are different than a normal GT120 type circuit but not enough to put them in another family. they still have DC coupled cathodynes using 12ax7s
also the NMV units from EA are very close to the GT120s as well
100% original is bull, whats more accurate is not 100% a clone
Soldanos are in the marshall family, the SLO is a modded 2203 at heart
Having EE's to trace circuits for similarities also helps. I seriously think this is the best gear related forum, despite the small userbase... ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: SunnO))) on April 13, 2012, 02:47:26 PM
Having EE's to trace circuits for similarities also helps. I seriously think this is the best gear related forum, despite the small userbase... ;D ;D ;D
gotta love us EEs
No one-off clones, commercially available amps or amp-kits only.
Sunn amps are just Dynaco stereos minus the Model T and the SS stuff but all the 200s or Sorado type amps took dynaco output stages and just modded the front end to be different
Paging Oli for the Britsection, What's up with those Burmans and Carlsboros? The fuck are they?
WE'RE LIKE DETECTIVES
dunwich amps are just pieces of shit built by a dickhead. add them to the dickhead family
Carlsboro is like the UKs answer to Peavey, or maybe Behringer, they make cheap amps, I'm amazed they're still on the go.
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 13, 2012, 02:45:58 PM
the MV units are different than a normal GT120 type circuit but not enough to put them in another family. they still have DC coupled cathodynes using 12ax7s
also the NMV units from EA are very close to the GT120s as well
100% original is bull, whats more accurate is not 100% a clone
Soldanos are in the marshall family, the SLO is a modded 2203 at heart
I figured you'd reply to that. The differences in tone stacks and FACs are what make me count them as different enough. You'll probably be pretty hard pressed to establish more than half a dozen unique family trees on this list, anyway. Everything's inspired by something else. The fact that EA MVs don't utilize the Baxandall was a pretty big suprise to me. And also explained away a long time curiosity as to why the tonal differences when I'd been under the impression for so long that they were straight up Matamp clones. They aren't, and John McNeese deserves a hell of a lot of credit for making a killer and unique sounding circuit.
What about Vox? I don't see that in the lists? The parent of its own tree, or a distant relative of something else?
yea they are nicely modded units in the same vein, the MV amp line.
Theres a few other tweaks beyond that such as a vox style hi cut to avoid problems with using feedback based presence controls and PPIMVs.
Its not a super modded version, still fairly close but for a good reason as he is not trying to abandon the general idea of that circuit topology
Quote from: koi on April 13, 2012, 03:00:33 PM
What about Vox? I don't see that in the lists? The parent of its own tree, or a distant relative of something else?
good catch forgot about them
This is kind of rad, Once we determine the main families, we can throw down and start pulling out the clones, etc.
I guess I can do the compiling, starting with Brands only, models and variants to follow, right? So, decide on the parents, you'uns.
Right on. Got another addition. So... Vox - Matchless?,
more amps to think about
Supro
Gibson
Dr Z
Egnater
Magnatone
Jim Kelley
Music Man
Park (put in Marshall)
Trainwreck
Selmer
Silvertone
Pignose
Univox
Aims
Rivera, VHT, Fortin, Yerasov etc.
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KRANK!!!!
Marshall-Narb, Park, Kitchen
Fender-Plush, Earth
Splawn for the Marshall section
Aren't Mesa mostly Fender with more gain stages?
Carlsbro made good valve amps (see for sale section), but didn't do endorsement, so wasters like that Hendrix guy couldn't blag them for free. They only went shitty with solid state stuff in the 80s. Pre is pretty Fendery, although sometimes with a fixed mid.
My Italian Mac is pretty AC30 style.
Vampower are pretty much their own thing. Although not traced out the circuit because I'm not that techy, the bite control does something different.
MKIV Sound City are their own thing, not much in common with Hiwatts except component brand.
Little Rock are post Burman
White should head to Matamp family, although not as closely linked as people selling them make out.
Didn't take apart my Thor but seems like its own thing too.
Simms-Watts, another one I have no clue about cause I've not had one, some ran ultralinear power sections though, sort of unusual.
Champ (as in Chambonino) have unique stuff, and Mammothsounds should be a branch thereof, although that totally is a guy who has made half a dozen amps.
everything is a fender basically :D
All thanks to the basic Bassman circuit I guess.
Which came from the RCA manual.
I'm only bothering with the big names, if someone else wants to organise all the other crap, go ahead ;)
Ways of identifying circuit styles would be handy too. Like setting all tone controls on a Sound City pre to 0 giving no sound tells you its the active pre. And the extra transformer wires that show an UL power section. Fender style tone controls being flat at min treble and bass, max mid is another one, if you can recognise flat (playing recorded music through stuff with a known flat cab is about the only way).
Wonder if we could do this - we put up an google spreadsheet categorizing major amp models by features - and also if you're really sure of it - predecessor circuit (Marshall <-- Bassman). There're software out there for making up a likely evolutionary tree given a set of features. Given that designing amp isn't exactly like natural selection we could end up with a big mess, but hey.
columns could be like : # of inputs, gain stage 1 circuit type, gs1 tube type, gs2 circuit type, gs2 tube type, gs3,.., tone stack type, phase inverter type, master volume circuit type, output tube circuit, output tube type, additional features - probably a few more columns for these.
So that's my bright idea, but I don't know enough about circuitry to fill most of the columns out by eyeballing the schematics.
Vox family: Vox AC15/AC30, Matchless DC30, Trainwreck Liverpool/Rocket
Peavey Classic family: Classic 30/50 (Ampeg input jack circuit/Fenderish preamp with extra gain/cathodyne PI/EL84 output/solid state recto)
Mullard family: Sunn 200S/2000S/Sonaro, Dr. Z Route 66 (purportedly)
I know that with these amps we're entering blues lawyer territory, but someone mentioned the Dumbles we all play our '59 Bursts and TS-808s through. Maybe we're getting a little esoteric and outside the genre.
Randall been mentioned?
Engl?
Just grabbed my Nolan back from tech, he says circuit is more Marshall, although partridge iron and Hiwatt styling. So call it a Laney, ha.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on April 15, 2012, 04:44:23 PM
Just grabbed my Nolan back from tech, he says circuit is more Marshall, although partridge iron and Hiwatt styling. So call it a Laney, ha.
Nolan's are all over the place, some very Marshall like, others more Fender and Hiwatt.
Add Triumph to Vampower link, actually predecessor.
what family is Sunn in?
I don't think it is, they were based on hi-fi amps.
My idea of starting the thread was to just save people spending stupid money on Amp B, when it was just a copy of Amp A, which is also available brand new as Amp C at a fairly reasonable price.
Of course people now want to turn it into a bedtime masturbation thread ::)
Quote from: spookstrickland on April 17, 2012, 06:08:16 PM
what family is Sunn in?
Model T is pretty Bassman I think. Can't really generalise whole brands that made stuff for that long.
the 200s/2000s/Sorado type amps have Dynaco style output sections with simple 2 stage preamps I believe
Even the two Sunn Model T's (not the Fender) have big differences, the furst one is an FMR tonestack, the second a Baxandall with the mid in a separate stage of the preamp ;)
FMR? or FMV ???
Quote from: Hemisaurus on April 17, 2012, 09:12:41 PM
the second a Baxandall with the mid in a separate stage of the preamp ;)
That make it ampeg family?
I just thought I was missing something for a second.
yea in the Gen 2 Model Ts they had a inductor/cap active mid range control on the cathode of a dual rail design gain stage, as well as a Bax/James Stack
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 18, 2012, 09:46:47 AM
yea in the Gen 2 Model Ts they had a inductor/cap active mid range control on the cathode of a dual rail design gain stage, as well as a Bax/James Stack
You ever thought about a course in English as asecond language? ;)
Quote from: Hemisaurus on April 18, 2012, 11:13:55 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 18, 2012, 09:46:47 AM
yea in the Gen 2 Model Ts they had a inductor/cap active mid range control on the cathode of a dual rail design gain stage, as well as a Bax/James Stack
You ever thought about a course in English as asecond language? ;)
forums dont deserve the grammar, I put that into my published work instead.
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 18, 2012, 11:36:04 AM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on April 18, 2012, 11:13:55 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 18, 2012, 09:46:47 AM
yea in the Gen 2 Model Ts they had a inductor/cap active mid range control on the cathode of a dual rail design gain stage, as well as a Bax/James Stack
You ever thought about a course in English as asecond language? ;)
forums dont deserve the grammar, I put that into my published work instead.
BAAAAM!
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 13, 2012, 02:45:58 PM
Soldanos are in the marshall family, the SLO is a modded 2203 at heart
didn't michael soldano base the first SLO on the JMPs he was hotrodding?
Quote from: mawso on April 19, 2012, 07:47:29 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 13, 2012, 02:45:58 PM
Soldanos are in the marshall family, the SLO is a modded 2203 at heart
didn't michael soldano base the first SLO on the JMPs he was hotrodding?
well a JMP may refer to the original 2203/2204 models, cut in 1975 or so which are nearly identical to the 80s JCM 800 units except for changes in supply filtering
oh you guys! LEAVE NICK ALONE
Chriscrocker.jpg
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Quote from: SunnO))) on April 19, 2012, 09:20:44 AM
oh you guys! LEAVE NICK ALONE
Chriscrocker.jpg
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hmmm?
I like the amp questions
Quote from: SunnO))) on April 19, 2012, 09:20:44 AM
oh you guys! LEAVE NICK ALONE
Sssh, we're trying to train him, it takes a while but eventually he'll be able to talk about amps, and the entire forum will understand him.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on April 19, 2012, 11:29:26 AM
Quote from: SunnO))) on April 19, 2012, 09:20:44 AM
oh you guys! LEAVE NICK ALONE
Sssh, we're trying to train him, it takes a while but eventually he'll be able to talk about amps, and the entire forum will understand him.
hahahahahahha. You should see our facebook chat conversations, it's like talking to a 14 year old girl that's an EE. ;D ;D ;D ;D
"yeah but it has a bax stack, u no, like becky, whoa?"
:D :D
I'm foolin'!
im a phd EE student what did you expect.
jake, parts for u are due in check for em today
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 19, 2012, 11:39:36 AM
im a phd EE student what did you expect.
jake, parts for u are due in check for em today
They usually swing by around 4-5PM, I can do that recap tonight and possibly get paid for it tomorrow! HORAY FOR SHIPPING.
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 19, 2012, 11:39:36 AM
im a phd EE student what did you expect.
jake, parts for u are due in check for em today
Communication is a good skill to develop though. Especially when dealing with musicians, a lot of whom don't want the technical jargon, but still want to know what's going on. Actually when dealing with anyone who is not an EE, and sometimes even people who are. I was often surprised by the lack of knowledge of a lot of the field engineers when talking to them.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on April 19, 2012, 12:49:12 PM
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 19, 2012, 11:39:36 AM
im a phd EE student what did you expect.
jake, parts for u are due in check for em today
Communication is a good skill to develop though. Especially when dealing with musicians, a lot of whom don't want the technical jargon, but still want to know what's going on. Actually when dealing with anyone who is not an EE, and sometimes even people who are. I was often surprised by the lack of knowledge of a lot of the field engineers when talking to them.
this is all quite true and what not. Communicating to outside folks is a skill that I have but just dont exercise on forums very often.
I'd say it's fairly obv you are able to communicate just fine if you're a fucking EE PhD candidate.
Quote from: mutantcolors on April 19, 2012, 01:05:06 PM
I'd say it's fairly obv you are able to communicate just fine if you're a fucking EE PhD candidate.
when i read this I thought a phd in fucking at first
a much needed laugh while in lab
We're just foolin' him, chill oot.
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im fine ha. no worries
Quote from: dunwichamps on April 19, 2012, 01:00:50 PM
this is all quite true and what not. Communicating to outside folks is a skill that I have but just dont exercise on forums very often.
Which is fine on an amp building forum, but this is primarily a musicians forum, try and exercise your communications skills, consider yourself an educator. I mean look at the SpaceBone1.02 thread, there are people here that aren't too sure about Ohms law, nevermind tonestack topologys and the best phase inverter for the job ;)
next person thinks I need to chill out needs a fucking reality check.
Welcome To a forum about rock and roll. PLEASE ENJOY EVERYONE TAKING EVERYTHING YOU SAY EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY BECAUSE THIS IS SERIOUS LAND.
holy fuck
You seem mad.
edit: because emotion and sarcasm are conveyed so well on the internet, my "you seem mad" comment is a jeer at you. Simple ribbing, as Herb, Nick and I were participating in. You always seem to have a standoffish approach to everything, and to my credit, this is the internet, and you never really know how somebody has reacted.
So, chill out.
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This is the Internet. Proper punctuation, grammar and other obsolete concepts are optional.
That being said,
MOAR PHZ INVERTRZ AND BAX STAX OF WAX PLZ KTHX LOL WTF WWJBBQ
Maybe we need to talk more about duplex power supplies and grid leak resistors.
which amp would be better for my synths..a guitar amp or a bass amp..??
Bass amp as the synths can put out lows that'll fuck up your guitar speakers. Ideally a keyboard would be your best bet, something like the Roland ones.
Quote from: mortlock on April 25, 2012, 01:34:58 AM
which amp would be better for my synths..a guitar amp or a bass amp..??
A PA.
:)
Some pretty interesting info here... But for those of us that haven't been fortunate to get one on one time with most of these, and don't know a baxandal stack from a stack of pancakes... What do the amps SOUND like? :P
Bax stack sounds like what you put it if the knobs are in the middle, turn up the bass knob, what comes out is bassier, ditto with the treble.