I've always had trouble being focused with my bands. I don't want to be in Mr. Bungle or anything but it seems like I'm always writing parts that just come from all over the place. I feel awkward sometimes and it feels like we've always been at least a little difficult to get or translate well live because we're often the least heavy band on a bill with heavy bands and the heaviest band on a bill with indie or post rock bands. I actually work well when I have real or artifical limits on what I write although even when I try and write an uptempo, galloping, high on fire style riff it ends up only vaguely resembling that but I'm good with that. Sometimes I feel like we'd benefit from working under more focused guidelines. I feel like if we were a restaurant one day we'd be Italian and the next it would be Ethiopian or some shit.
Do you find it works to start a project saying stuff like "this will be the doomiest band ever" or "we want this to be like a fuzzed out acid trip"?
i think it's good to have some sort of manifesto and idea of what kind of sonic spectrum you fit into-but at the end of the day you have to trust your ears and your gut instinct. I would argue against putting limits on your sound or definition as a band for a lot of reasons: most musicians dont like boundaries, your tunes will all start sounding the same, your band will start sounding like a lot of other bands out there, and after a while it just gets boring playing in that kind of band.
I can relate to you feeling like your band doesnt fit in on any bill and i'm constantly doubting my own band's appeal to the masses. I play in an instrumental-psych-blues trio and we've never played a show where we've really fit in. But I'm seeing over time how awesome that is! We're always the one band that people remember at the end of the night-even the black/death metal guys love us! no idea why lol.
When i started the band our manifesto was: we dont want to be influenced by "scenes" musically, it is and always will be about writing the best musical-sex that we are capable of , to keep the intent of the music "pure".
Good thread by the way.
in my current project, the focus is to write shit that's fun to play and we want to hear. there are general sonic ideas that we mostly stick to (and occasionally do not)...we definitely don't ever seem to say 'that part's too fast/slow/weird for this band'.
this band has both gotten big rooms with lots of people moving, and also half-emptied some places, that shit has a lot to do with the crowd, too. it can be a little disappointing those times people don't seem to be feeling it, but i'd never want to try to make it more palatable to the people who aren't me, or try to make it so that song c is more like songs a and b, or whatever.
Quote from: clockwork green on September 16, 2012, 03:19:30 AM
I've always had trouble being focused with my bands. I don't want to be in Mr. Bungle or anything but it seems like I'm always writing parts that just come from all over the place. I feel awkward sometimes and it feels like we've always been at least a little difficult to get or translate well live because we're often the least heavy band on a bill with heavy bands and the heaviest band on a bill with indie or post rock bands. I actually work well when I have real or artifical limits on what I write although even when I try and write an uptempo, galloping, high on fire style riff it ends up only vaguely resembling that but I'm good with that. Sometimes I feel like we'd benefit from working under more focused guidelines. I feel like if we were a restaurant one day we'd be Italian and the next it would be Ethiopian or some shit.
Do you find it works to start a project saying stuff like "this will be the doomiest band ever" or "we want this to be like a fuzzed out acid trip"?
Have you ever thought about adding a 2nd guitar player to help with writing and focus?
Mixing genres and influences is great. That keeps 'genre' music (for example "heavy rock") fresh and evolving. It's good for originality. Especially if it's not exactly the same ingredients everybody else uses. Huge bonus points if your heavy rock band sounds original.
IMO what sometimes doesn't work very well is bands not really blending things, but being sorta all over the place... in other words, including different elements but not fully integrating them. Like if you were a punk band - "here's our fast song, here's one with a spacerock flavor, but this one sounds like punk Kraftwerk". Meh. I'd be more interested in hearing a punk band that mixed all those elements together in various ways, in every single song. Unless "being all over the place" is part of your aesthetic... it might be.
On one hand, I think it's good if you know what you're trying to say, musically and lyrically, and you pursue that with focus. On the other hand, it can be bad to limit yourself.
Quote from: eddiefive10 on September 16, 2012, 10:07:55 AM
Have you ever thought about adding a 2nd guitar player to help with writing and focus?
We had one briefly years ago and it worked really well. But the other guy ended up moving back to North Carolina. My best friend had just died and I was the one that found her so I was pretty miserable for a few months and I think the other guy took it personally but I really liked the music we made at the time. My favorite thing about playing with another guitar player is that it inspires me to write complementary parts to theirs that take the music in a different direction. I hate seeing two guitar players play the same thing except for solos...it's just boring beyond belief. I would consider that again but writing new songs is less of our issue. I've just been thinking back and in the very beginning I had a specific focus for this (well, the original version) of this project...big riffs that grooved and extended spacey parts for that mellow psych vibe. Now that we're restarting things (still no drummer) with a new name and new songs and I'm just wondering if we'd benefit from some direction.
We had the same problem in the beginning. In the end, a band is never what you thought it would be, it's always gonna be different. We actually played a few covers to get it going. Picked out songs that we liked and stuff that we thought was cool. After a while, each of us contributed to making a song and because we had been playing together, just doing covers of stuff that's inspirational for us, it's actually pretty easy. We just overthink stuff so it takes a while to get a decent structure.
I don't recommend you take any self imposed limits seriously. If you say, "I want to write a Melvin's style riff," then that's a cool way to get started. But if it starts sounding un-Melvinsy, don't stop. To me it seems like you guys just haven't finished developing your sound yet and that's perfectly OK. I was in the same place a few years ago. It didn't seem like any two songs belonged on the same album from the same band. Part of it was that I was too close to the music and was being over critical. The other part of it was that I hadn't written enough songs with those guys to really hone in on what made us interesting. Put the work in and develop any song that sounds cool regardless of whether it fits with your other shit. Keep doing that and in 8 or 10 songs the focus will emerge naturally and without effort. Artificially narrowing your focus before you develop your sound seems like a recipe for a stale band. It's never a bad idea to write a cool tune, regardless of what your other shit sounds like.
I think of the band I'm now in as my "metal" band so I go for a sound that centers around doom metal and to a lesser extent Celtic Frost, Manowar, Ironsword and some other bands and subgenres. One of my personal goals is to write material that is as heavy as possible. That may sound silly but I'm having a lot of fun doing it even if we aren't even close to being the heaviest band around. I think we kind of have a "sound" although there is some variance with the songs. I can't see us doing any black, death, thrash, hardcore, prog rock, country, or whatever but if elements from any of those sounds crept in and we liked it so be it.
I agree that the direction of the whole band will rarely end up wherever the initial thought was designed to go. That being said, I think that it's pretty important to find your own sound, and that likely will not be the influence of one and only one person. Everyone's little quirks contribute to that to make the whole.
One thing I've noticed with bands on our level is they tend to write songs that follow sub-genres pretty closely, recognizing the guidelines of said sub-genre. One song might be Folk metal, another might be heavily Sword influenced, while the next it total power metal then on to the Ten Years After blues rock. While this can be entertaining for a while, it leaves a gaping hole in the identity of the band, and can lead to being forgettable. Because there isn't really anything identifiable- they may sound like they intended, but they will never be an influence to anyone else.
I view this as phase that a band goes through, and many never get past it. It takes time and effort to figure out how to play up everyone's quirks and most bands just don't last long enough to get there.
One of my own personal quirks is that I feel much more creative when I'm locked in by certain limits. If I try and write a Melvinsy sort of riff it might end up being only 5% of the song and I might end up fucking with it so much that nobody else seems to notice it but me. The other day I saw Hatchet and Vektor play and while they were good they both had an 80's thrash paint by numbers look and sound for the most part (especially Hatchet) even down to the faux-white hi-tip Reebok's. They're stuck by their limits and that's totally different from the way I treat self-imposed limits...I treat them as a challenge to follow them in the least obvious way possible.
That being said, I've been thinking about stuff we've done in the past and what seems to work and by work I mean what works from our own interests because audiences seem to prefer our more straight forward songs. I like how we've pulled off mix light and heavy parts especially when some of the heaviest parts have been the lightest sonically. Lyrically and thematically when we've explored the awkward, uncomfortable and sometimes shameful truths about us we've been at our strongest. Kinda like how Louis CK's shows can actually be not only dark but really awkward and uncomfortable to watch. There are better people out there to write songs about love, Satan and the government but we've got the strangling a close friend and I'm emotionally distant so all of my relationships are superficial and more than a bit of a lie market down. So I think there is an acknowledged focus in there but we've never really focused on it or truly embraced it. That being said I never want it to be obvious. I know exactly what most bands next record will sound like and I'm okay with not knowing what our next album will sound like.
I guess I started this thread just to get a feel for what others do when going into a new project...mine just happens to be a new one with mostly old, familiar parts. It seems like so many bands know exactly what they want to do and then they just on a particular sound or style becoming more nuanced and masterful in it over time. I felt like I missed a memo.
My bro and I have written and played together in bands for 20 plus yrs now. We have always done most of our writing together, and over that time have done a mixture of Heavy Rock/Metal/Doomy/Grunge like stuff. We settled into writting again a year or so ago with the idea of going back to our roots and writing 70's inspired Hard/heavy Rock inspired more by Thin Lizzy, early Whitesnake and several other twin gtr bands. Fat guitar tones, good recording mixes, and a major step even further away from the populas take on what is rock music these days. We grew up on LP's, and cassette tapes and more "Album" oriented music. That's where we're headin'.
stay tru to what resonates with you as a player or musician. dont let your mind play these games with you. i do it too-trust me, but in the end your best riffs are the ones that you feel the most-regardless of whether or not they fit into a genre or preconceived idea.
I can identify with the frustration of not having a really clear focus in bands. Most of my previous band have been some variation on "hey, we're all friends and play instruments, let's start a band!". Most of the time I tried to start a band with a very specific focus from day one, it never got off the ground for lack of available/interested/committed band members. So when something does get going, it can get really scattered and varied in tone and style from release to release or even song to song.
The only band I've done and am still currently doing that does have a very clear purpose is Mental Waste. It's a recording only project, with no ambition to play live. The goal is really straight forward. Play fast hardcore/punk/thrash influenced songs within a certain influence that we both like (Siege, Crossed Out, Discharge, Mind Eraser) and have it be a venting of frustration, anger, disappointment, misanthropy and that sort of thing, with everything done as economically as possible. So the songs are pretty sort and to the point, we record everything ourselves, we try to write everything is one quick session (usually 3 songs at a time) and not over think them too much. We tinker with stuff as we're working on it, but we never go back and change anything later. We write the drums and guitars, then the guitarist/singer works on lyrics. Then we re-record everything, I add bass, he adds vocals and I mix it. We try to keep everything fresh, as few passes/takes as possible on everything. There's a really specific workflow that's designed purely just to keep us from over thinking things and meddling with them, it keeps the momentum moving. I've learned a lot from that process and I try to take it to other projects I work on. Not all of them should be done as quick as possible, but I try to encourage everyone to get the framework of songs down quick and then move on. Go back and tinker later, but don't make the songwriting process full of detours and tangents where you try out a dozen different ways to play the same riff or rearrange the format of the song a bunch of different ways before you even have it completely written. The creative purpose thing is harder, either you're in a band where everyone is on board with something or you're in a band where everyone wants to play, but they have their own agenda. Neither is perfect, but the former just requires good habits to keep things moving well, the latter is like herding cats.
Heh, why would it be cool to be in a country band? Because I could not care less about it, wouldn't take it seriously, and would probably write some good material due to these facts. Thus, if you allow your band to narrow the focus of song writing, ie desert, 70's, doomy, etc, don't take it to heart. I write shit for me and and I write shit for the band. Two different things. The band writing has boundaries and I think it's easier to write within these boundaries. Plus it makes band mates happy. You can't easily rip out a punk anthem in a drone band. Band mates frown on that sort of thing.
The focus of my current "project" is to keep myself from getting bored during the commercials. :P
This is a cool thread....My current project incorporates a lot of different genres. Mostly death/doom, but we include black metal, traditional doom, sludge, d-beat. I don't really care as long as I feel comfortable playing it and dig the riffs. Whatever's good. I think that's just how music is for younger people nowadays anyway, because that's how we listen to music. I know it keeps me from being bored creating songs. Anything goes.
Nothing now. Matt and I just put an ad out to start a doom band. Anxious to see what happens. Problem w/ us is we live quite a few miles north of Denver and Boulder is full of mandolin and acoustic jammers. Tough to find people that are into the kind of stuff we play, but we'll see. I'd love for it to happen.
Man, read the rest of the responses... IMO, trying to write to a genre or what your band has done before does suck... For sure. Conversely, trying to step out of you comfort zone and be forced to write something sucks too. Neither situation is "organic" and I've come to realize through my hippieness that organic music is usually the best regardless of genre. How many bands have you heard say, "It took us 6 months and 10 practices to write this song and we're super happy everyone loves it..."? Never. It's always, "Yeah I wrote this song in a few minutes after a show whacked out on heroin and am lucky the recorder was set...". Push the boundaries, maybe, but don't go crazy playing something that doesn't feel right. My $.02, anyway. For me that'd be focusing on heavy, riffy shit without getting too tech.
Quote from: zachoff on September 18, 2012, 01:53:15 AM
IMO, trying to write to a genre or what your band has done before does suck... For sure. Conversely, trying to step out of you comfort zone and be forced to write something sucks too.
Maybe just try to come up with a sound by writing a lot, it doesn't mean that sound has to be exactly the same for every song. In the '60s and '70s bands would sometimes have a couple ballads, a blues rock song, a couple psychedelic songs, an experimental weird song, and a couple hard rockers and it could make for a great album with good flow. I don't know what the modern heavy underground equivalent of that is but it's something to think about at least.
Quote from: zachoff on September 18, 2012, 01:53:15 AM
Man, read the rest of the responses... IMO, trying to write to a genre or what your band has done before does suck... For sure. Conversely, trying to step out of you comfort zone and be forced to write something sucks too. Neither situation is "organic" and I've come to realize through my hippieness that organic music is usually the best regardless of genre. How many bands have you heard say, "It took us 6 months and 10 practices to write this song and we're super happy everyone loves it..."? Never. It's always, "Yeah I wrote this song in a few minutes after a show whacked out on heroin and am lucky the recorder was set...". Push the boundaries, maybe, but don't go crazy playing something that doesn't feel right. My $.02, anyway. For me that'd be focusing on heavy, riffy shit without getting too tech.
I struggle with what you're alluding to. Our singer is more of a straight-ahead rock dude that just likes something you can groove to, which I appreciate. I am the type that likes Isis and long shit that builds. I can write 10 songs a day with a jammy little toe-tapping riff and that would suit him just fine, but I can't get myself to agree to it. For some reason if I can come up with it effortlessly then it just doesn't interest me even if it sounds cool. I just think to myself, "If I can do it this easily then a million other people can." If I'm trying to avoid one thing, it's being generic. That said, it's also kind of stupid since the fact that it took a lot of work to make happen doesn't mean it's worth a damn. And if I have to fight an arrangement I usually end up scrapping it. I guess what I do is just play for a long time and scrap a bunch of stuff until every once in awhile I'll hit on something new sounding, and then that either comes together quickly and I keep it (with tweaks later), or it's a dead end.
I guess I say this to add the other side of the coin: it has to be organic, but you can't just take the easiest path all the time either if you want to do something truly original and fresh. I can't, anyway.
Agent I can't respect that because you are making music for your singer. Bands are always too many chiefs and not enough Indians. To limit yourself to one style I like suicide. It will drive you crazy and make you not even want to play. My focus when writing new material is whatever I like I play. If you want to play Isis type songs then play Isis type songs. You may as well face it. You will not make a living playing music so why waste it on music that you don't like. I'd get rid of Scott stapp and do my own thing if the other guys had something to say about it.
to survive
Quote from: Demon Lung on September 18, 2012, 10:26:27 AM
Agent I can't respect that because you are making music for your singer. Bands are always too many chiefs and not enough Indians. To limit yourself to one style I like suicide. It will drive you crazy and make you not even want to play. My focus when writing new material is whatever I like I play. If you want to play Isis type songs then play Isis type songs. You may as well face it. You will not make a living playing music so why waste it on music that you don't like. I'd get rid of Scott stapp and do my own thing if the other guys had something to say about it.
I disagree. As I said, I don't just churn out the riffs to placate him. I work at it until I find something that has the groove AND is interesting to me. The fact that I don't bring everything I enjoy to the band doesn't mean I don't enjoy what I do bring. You make it sound like I'm playing shit I don't like because of something my singer dictates. No, I'm just not bringing the 10 minute instrumental pieces to this particular band or I'll rearrange things so that we compromise. Getting input from other (talented) people with different perspectives often leads to better songs, not watered down ones. I figure that collaboration is par for the course if you want to be a musician in a band and not a prick that's dictating and unwilling to be flexible. But hey, go with what works for you.
i still respectfully disagree. all it takes to make great music is 2 people that are on the same page. fuck all that watered down mess. josh homme works with every shitty artist on the planet and everything he does now is watered down.
Have you heard of the concept that all dimes are coins but not all coins are dimes? You can like everything you use but not use everything you like.
My point was that I seem obsessed with throwing away riffs if they come to me easily, and that's kind of stupid. For some reason I think the riff is only good if I torture myself for awhile first. On the other hand, it usually leads to good results.
(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/289/1/c/keep_it_simple_stupid_by_mrjmendes-d30uups.jpg)
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 18, 2012, 10:30:29 AM
to survive
i agree. haven't practiced in months. damn you life and responsibility.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 18, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: justinhedrick on September 18, 2012, 04:13:46 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 18, 2012, 10:30:29 AM
to survive
i agree. haven't practiced in months. damn you life and responsibility.
you still have bandmates?
yeah, drummer and bass player. We are a 3 piece now. no synth/noise guy anymore. more straightforward songs, and so forth.
do you still have bandmates?
QuoteHow many bands have you heard say, "It took us 6 months and 10 practices to write this song and we're super happy everyone loves it..."? Never
lots of bands take a long time writing songs. part of the process (if youre not a 3 chord punk band) is refining the tunes until you're happy with them. am i wrong?
anyways, dude it sounds like you and your singer have to understand and accept both your individual needs when it comes to writing. maybe you guys do already-i dont know.
I goota say, by bud and I have these discussions all the time. I have chosen not to learn mucho covers in order to write my own stuff. In the same respect, I constantly push myself to write something that is fresh to me, and him. It's always drawing from multiple influences, and always with the intent of NOT sounding like a) something I've already written and b) doesn't sound like something I like. Now, the second part is extremely hard, but always acheivable. I throw TONS of ideas away because of these rules I place on myself, but certain parts are always in the brain back for possible use later. Don't kill yourself, just let it happen. My bro always tells me that I will always write and play heavy because thats how I am. He's a bit more all over, but it jells well. Just keep writing, and riffing.
Quote from: skydogdiesel on September 18, 2012, 06:31:30 PM
QuoteHow many bands have you heard say, "It took us 6 months and 10 practices to write this song and we're super happy everyone loves it..."? Never
lots of bands take a long time writing songs. part of the process (if youre not a 3 chord punk band) is refining the tunes until you're happy with them. am i wrong?
anyways, dude it sounds like you and your singer have to understand and accept both your individual needs when it comes to writing. maybe you guys do already-i dont know.
Yeah, it takes a while to finish a song, but I was talking more about the core riff(s) rather than the finished product. Writing words takes a while too. My least favorite part.
Quote from: justinhedrick on September 18, 2012, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 18, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: justinhedrick on September 18, 2012, 04:13:46 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 18, 2012, 10:30:29 AM
to survive
i agree. haven't practiced in months. damn you life and responsibility.
you still have bandmates?
yeah, drummer and bass player. We are a 3 piece now. no synth/noise guy anymore. more straightforward songs, and so forth.
do you still have bandmates?
singular :)
Quote from: Demon Lung on September 18, 2012, 01:00:55 PM
i still respectfully disagree. all it takes to make great music is 2 people that are on the same page. fuck all that watered down mess. josh homme works with every shitty artist on the planet and everything he does now is watered down.
I totally agree. The best music ever written is by two people together. Any more than two and it gets watered down.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 18, 2012, 07:25:17 PM
Quote from: justinhedrick on September 18, 2012, 05:10:34 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 18, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Quote from: justinhedrick on September 18, 2012, 04:13:46 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 18, 2012, 10:30:29 AM
to survive
i agree. haven't practiced in months. damn you life and responsibility.
you still have bandmates?
yeah, drummer and bass player. We are a 3 piece now. no synth/noise guy anymore. more straightforward songs, and so forth.
do you still have bandmates?
singular :)
godflesh tribute band?
Probably more like Ben Green's solo work ;)
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 19, 2012, 11:08:31 AM
Probably more like Ben Green's solo work ;)
which ben(ny) green?
The one in Godflesh :)
I'm focusing on more unusual eqing and mixing. Trying weird scoops and waves and really going for some nasty guitar tones. Sometimes muffled, sometimes thin or peaked. As always inspired by some sub-genres or certain bands, but right now really trying to remove the Sabbath from my approach as much as possible, which is very hard. Having fun trying to come up with different riffs that have good staying power, almost danceable and are still punk rock and sound good with fuzz pedals and psych jams.
I just want to write and record something I'll enjoy playing/listening to and be proud of it.
Quote from: eyeprod on September 19, 2012, 10:32:15 PM
I'm focusing on more unusual eqing and mixing. Trying weird scoops and waves and really going for some nasty guitar tones. Sometimes muffled, sometimes thin or peaked. As always inspired by some sub-genres or certain bands, but right now really trying to remove the Sabbath from my approach as much as possible, which is very hard. Having fun trying to come up with different riffs that have good staying power, almost danceable and are still punk rock and sound good with fuzz pedals and psych jams.
I keep hearing these Muffled Watery guitar tones and it does not appear to be an effect more like mic placement, do you know anything about how to achieve that? I've been really digging it lately. Seems as I can remember hearing it in some old Bowie or Badcompany songs and there was a Black Keys song I just heard that had the effect but I don't know it's name.
Ferocity.
Tremolo? or a Leslie?
QuoteWhen the H910 came out in 1975, Tony Visconti claimed that it "f*cked with the fabric of time".
Interesting topic for sure! I guess having a focus isn't that bad as long as you always questioning your music, trying not to get stuck. Find new ways, riffs, arrangements, sounds etc... But for my part, songwriting and what I want to tell with my music, some times collides with band politics. Which can be a bitch.... So it isn't always that easy to stay totally true to yourself every time, but as long as I keep questioning myself. And I do have a band that most of the times works rather good which I'm really thankful for... Especially when it comes to every day life...
Quote from: spookstrickland on September 20, 2012, 01:47:12 AM
I keep hearing these Muffled Watery guitar tones and it does not appear to be an effect more like mic placement, do you know anything about how to achieve that? I've been really digging it lately. Seems as I can remember hearing it in some old Bowie or Badcompany songs and there was a Black Keys song I just heard that had the effect but I don't know it's name.
hey Spook. I've been using an eq pedal at the end of my chain and it's pretty powerful at that position. For muffled tones I just cut all highs completely, cut the lowest bass frequencies and leave a couple of lower mid bands really low. Watery? I'm not sure, but maybe some time of modulation effect would be required? I'm using a boss eq pedal and it's not bad, but makes me think of what I could do with a more powerful equalizer.