How did your band get signed? what is the best way to get distribution? we've gotten some bites from very small indie labels who can push our record to other markets, book cool shows, the odd festival date-and that's cool and everything, but i wanna reach out to bigger labels like small stone, teepee, drag city, holy mountain. anyone here signed to these labels? how'd you get there?
we're thinking of pressing a small run of cd's of our new record just for the sole purpose of promo and sending out to labels in order to get distro, tour, open for bigger bands. is this an ideal of the past? it seems like the music industry is at a plateau where it doesnt know where it's going or how it's going to change .. looking for your thoughts, ideas and opinions....
Whenever i hear
signed I always think of this.
http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=17 (http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=17)
QuoteThe Problem With Music
by Steve Albini
Whenever I talk to a band who are about to sign with a major label, I always end up thinking of them in a particular context. I imagine a trench, about four feet wide and five feet deep, maybe sixty yards long, filled with runny, decaying shit. I imagine these people, some of them good friends, some of them barely acquaintances, at one end of this trench. I also imagine a faceless industry lackey at the other end holding a fountain pen and a contract waiting to be signed. Nobody can see what's printed on the contract. It's too far away, and besides, the shit stench is making everybody's eyes water. The lackey shouts to everybody that the first one to swim the trench gets to sign the contract. Everybody dives in the trench and they struggle furiously to get to the other end. Two people arrive simultaneously and begin wrestling furiously, clawing each other and dunking each other under the shit. Eventually, one of them capitulates, and there's only one contestant left. He reaches for the pen, but the Lackey says "Actually, I think you need a little more development. Swim again, please. Backstroke". And he does of course.
Every major label involved in the hunt for new bands now has on staff a high-profile point man, an "A & R" rep who can present a comfortable face to any prospective band. The initials stand for "Artist and Repertoire." because historically, the A & R staff would select artists to record music that they had also selected, out of an available pool of each. This is still the case, though not openly. These guys are universally young [about the same age as the bands being wooed], and nowadays they always have some obvious underground rock credibility flag they can wave.
Lyle Preslar, former guitarist for Minor Threat, is one of them. Terry Tolkin, former NY independent booking agent and assistant manager at Touch and Go is one of them. Al Smith, former soundman at CBGB is one of them. Mike Gitter, former editor of XXX fanzine and contributor to Rip, Kerrang and other lowbrow rags is one of them. Many of the annoying turds who used to staff college radio stations are in their ranks as well. There are several reasons A & R scouts are always young. The explanation usually copped-to is that the scout will be "hip to the current musical "scene." A more important reason is that the bands will intuitively trust someone they think is a peer, and who speaks fondly of the same formative rock and roll experiences. The A & R person is the first person to make contact with the band, and as such is the first person to promise them the moon. Who better to promise them the moon than an idealistic young turk who expects to be calling the shots in a few years, and who has had no previous experience with a big record company. Hell, he's as naive as the band he's duping. When he tells them no one will interfere in their creative process, he probably even believes it. When he sits down with the band for the first time, over a plate of angel hair pasta, he can tell them with all sincerity that when they sign with company X, they're really signing with him and he's on their side. Remember that great gig I saw you at in '85? Didn't we have a blast. By now all rock bands are wise enough to be suspicious of music industry scum. There is a pervasive caricature in popular culture of a portly, middle aged ex-hipster talking a mile-a-minute, using outdated jargon and calling everybody "baby." After meeting "their" A & R guy, the band will say to themselves and everyone else, "He's not like a record company guy at all! He's like one of us." And they will be right. That's one of the reasons he was hired.
These A & R guys are not allowed to write contracts. What they do is present the band with a letter of intent, or "deal memo," which loosely states some terms, and affirms that the band will sign with the label once a contract has been agreed on. The spookiest thing about this harmless sounding little memo, is that it is, for all legal purposes, a binding document. That is, once the band signs it, they are under obligation to conclude a deal with the label. If the label presents them with a contract that the band don't want to sign, all the label has to do is wait. There are a hundred other bands willing to sign the exact same contract, so the label is in a position of strength. These letters never have any terms of expiration, so the band remain bound by the deal memo until a contract is signed, no matter how long that takes. The band cannot sign to another laborer or even put out its own material unless they are released from their agreement, which never happens. Make no mistake about it: once a band has signed a letter of intent, they will either eventually sign a contract that suits the label or they will be destroyed.
One of my favorite bands was held hostage for the better part of two years by a slick young "He's not like a label guy at all," A & R rep, on the basis of such a deal memo. He had failed to come through on any of his promises [something he did with similar effect to another well-known band], and so the band wanted out. Another label expressed interest, but when the A & R man was asked to release the band, he said he would need money or points, or possibly both, before he would consider it. The new label was afraid the price would be too dear, and they said no thanks. On the cusp of making their signature album, an excellent band, humiliated, broke up from the stress and the many months of inactivity. There's this band. They're pretty ordinary, but they're also pretty good, so they've attracted some attention. They're signed to a moderate-sized "independent" label owned by a distribution company, and they have another two albums owed to the label. They're a little ambitious. They'd like to get signed by a major label so they can have some security you know, get some good equipment, tour in a proper tour bus — nothing fancy, just a little reward for all the hard work. To that end, they got a manager. He knows some of the label guys, and he can shop their next project to all the right people. He takes his cut, sure, but it's only 15%, and if he can get them signed then it's money well spent. Anyways, it doesn't cost them anything if it doesn't work. 15% of nothing isn't much! One day an A & R scout calls them, says he's 'been following them for a while now, and when their manager mentioned them to him, it just "clicked." Would they like to meet with him about the possibility of working out a deal with his label? Wow. Big Break time. They meet the guy, and y'know what — he's not what they expected from a label guy. He's young and dresses pretty much like the band does. He knows all their favorite bands. He's like one of them. He tells them he wants to go to bat for them, to try to get them everything they want. He says anything is possible with the right attitude.
They conclude the evening by taking home a copy of a deal memo they wrote out and signed on the spot. The A & R guy was full of great ideas, even talked about using a name producer. Butch Vig is out of the question-he wants 100 g's and three points, but they can get Don Fleming for $30,000 plus three points. Even that's a little steep, so maybe they'll go with that guy who used to be in David Letterman's band. He only wants three points. Or they can have just anybody record it (like Warton Tiers, maybe– cost you 5 or 7 grand] and have Andy Wallace remix it for 4 grand a track plus 2 points. It was a lot to think about. Well, they like this guy and they trust him. Besides, they already signed the deal memo. He must have been serious about wanting them to sign. They break the news to their current label, and the label manager says he wants them to succeed, so they have his blessing. He will need to be compensated, of course, for the remaining albums left on their contract, but he'll work it out with the label himself.
Sub Pop made millions from selling off Nirvana, and Twin Tone hasn't done bad either: 50 grand for the Babes and 60 grand for the Poster Children– without having to sell a single additional record. It'll be something modest. The new label doesn't mind, so long as it's recoupable out of royalties. Well, they get the final contract, and it's not quite what they expected. They figure it's better to be safe than sorry and they turn it over to a lawyer–one who says he's experienced in entertainment law and he hammers out a few bugs. They're still not sure about it, but the lawyer says he's seen a lot of contracts, and theirs is pretty good. They'll be great royalty: 13% [less a 1O% packaging deduction]. Wasn't it Buffalo Tom that were only getting 12% less 10? Whatever. The old label only wants 50 grand, an no points. Hell, Sub Pop got 3 points when they let Nirvana go. They're signed for four years, with options on each year, for a total of over a million dollars! That's a lot of money in any man's English. The first year's advance alone is $250,000. Just think about it, a quarter million, just for being in a rock band! Their manager thinks it's a great deal, especially the large advance. Besides, he knows a publishing company that will take the band on if they get signed, and even give them an advance of 20 grand, so they'll be making that money too. The manager says publishing is pretty mysterious, and nobody really knows where all the money comes from, but the lawyer can look that contract over too. Hell, it's free money. Their booking agent is excited about the band signing to a major. He says they can maybe average $1,000 or $2,000 a night from now on. That's enough to justify a five week tour, and with tour support, they can use a proper crew, buy some good equipment and even get a tour bus! Buses are pretty expensive, but if you figure in the price of a hotel room for everybody In the band and crew, they're actually about the same cost. Some bands like Therapy? and Sloan and Stereolab use buses on their tours even when they're getting paid only a couple hundred bucks a night, and this tour should earn at least a grand or two every night. It'll be worth it. The band will be more comfortable and will play better.
The agent says a band on a major label can get a merchandising company to pay them an advance on T-shirt sales! ridiculous! There's a gold mine here! The lawyer Should look over the merchandising contract, just to be safe. They get drunk at the signing party. Polaroids are taken and everybody looks thrilled. The label picked them up in a limo. They decided to go with the producer who used to be in Letterman's band. He had these technicians come in and tune the drums for them and tweak their amps and guitars. He had a guy bring in a slew of expensive old "vintage" microphones. Boy, were they "warm." He even had a guy come in and check the phase of all the equipment in the control room! Boy, was he professional. He used a bunch of equipment on them and by the end of it, they all agreed that it sounded very "punchy," yet "warm." All that hard work paid off. With the help of a video, the album went like hotcakes! They sold a quarter million copies! Here is the math that will explain just how fucked they are: These figures are representative of amounts that appear in record contracts daily. There's no need to skew the figures to make the scenario look bad, since real-life examples more than abound. income is bold and underlined, expenses are not.
Advance: $ 250,000
Manager's cut:
$ 37,500
Legal fees:
$ 10,000
Recording Budget:
$ 150,000
Producer's advance:
$ 50,000
Studio fee:
$ 52,500
Drum Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors":
$ 3,000
Recording tape:
$ 8,000
Equipment rental:
$ 5,000
Cartage and Transportation:
$ 5,000
Lodgings while in studio:
$ 10,000
Catering:
$ 3,000
Mastering:
$ 10,000
Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping
tapes, misc. expenses:
$ 2,000
Video budget:
$ 30,000
Cameras:
$ 8,000
Crew:
$ 5,000
Processing and transfers:
$ 3,000
Off-line:
$ 2,000
On-line editing:
$ 3,000
Catering:
$ 1,000
Stage and construction:
$ 3,000
Copies, couriers, transportation:
$ 2,000
Director's fee:
$ 3,000
Album Artwork:
$ 5,000
Promotional photo shoot and duplication:
$ 2,000
Band fund:
$ 15,000
New fancy professional drum kit:
$ 5,000
New fancy professional guitars [2]:
$ 3,000
New fancy professional guitar amp rigs [2]:
$ 4,000
New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar:
$ 1,000
New fancy rack of lights bass amp:
$ 1,000
Rehearsal space rental:
$ 500
Big blowout party for their friends:
$ 500
Tour expense [5 weeks]:
$ 50,875
Bus:
$ 25,000
Crew [3]:
$ 7,500
Food and per diems:
$ 7,875
Fuel:
$ 3,000
Consumable supplies:
$ 3,500
Wardrobe:
$ 1,000
Promotion:
$ 3,000
Tour gross income: $ 50,000
Agent's cut:
$ 7,500
Manager's cut:
$ 7,500
Merchandising advance: $ 20,000
Manager's cut:
$ 3,000
Lawyer's fee:
$ 1,000
Publishing advance: $ 20,000
Manager's cut:
$ 3,000
Lawyer's fee:
$ 1,000
Record sales:
250,000 @ $12 =
$3,000,000
Gross retail revenue Royalty:
[13% of 90% of retail]:
$ 351,000
Less advance:
$ 250,000
Producer's points:
[3% less $50,000 advance]:
$ 40,000
Promotional budget:
$ 25,000
Recoupable buyout from previous label:
$ 50,000
Net royalty: $ -14,000
Record company income:
Record wholesale price:
$6.50 x 250,000 =
$1,625,000 gross income
Artist Royalties:
$ 351,000
Deficit from royalties:
$ 14,000
Manufacturing, packaging and distribution:
@ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000
Gross profit:
$ 710,000
The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game.
Record company:
$ 710,000
Producer:
$ 90,000
Manager:
$ 51,000
Studio:
$ 52,500
Previous label:
$ 50,000
Agent:
$ 7,500
Lawyer:
$ 12,000
Band member net income each:
$ 4,031.25
The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month. The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige. The next tour will be about the same, except the merchandising advance will have already been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't have earned any royalties from their T-shirts yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out how to count money like record company guys. Some of your friends are probably already this fucked.
Of course, I am also old and cynical, but I'd go with a tiny label run by a mate anyday.
i read the whole thing. we know signing with a major label is retarded for the reasons outlined above. we're looking to the smaller, established indie labels like a labelled above. mostly for distro, exposure and tour oppurtunities.
we all have day jobs, but we do plan to be around a while as a band and we do take the music we write pretty seriously. we recorded a sweet sounding ep for under 500$ and are recording our lp at the same studio for 700$. Granted he's a friend and is clearly giving us a break, but the quality is good. we just want to take it to the next level.
Yeah, I know, I read you saying indie, I just have trust issues with pretty much everybody, though I did meet Daniel Miller a couple of times, though not to sign my band, and he seemed like a really cool guy. :)
Good luck.
The Poster Children are from champaign . . .
and yes, small and indie over huge any day of the week.
No. But I still have a few cents for you, cause why not.
Play out a lot, be awesome, tour when you can, make connections with bands you like who have fans that might like your stuff. Send your recordings to labels that put out stuff you like, whether they are tiny or medium to big "indie" labels. Don't expect anything.
That's all I got.
that albini article is a good read if you're one of the few who's never seen it before, but it gets peddled around the internet as the only thing you need to know about record deals
there are 2 main probs with it.. the first is that it was written in the early 90s about a world that doesn't exist anymore. i mean who the hell is going from nowhere to walk into 150k recording budgets in 2012?
but the biggest problem with his breakdown at the end is that it assumes that getting such a big audience for your work is worth $0
to me that's silly. having such wide exposure is worth a fortune - not just in the music business, it's a fact of commerce generally. listeners are becoming fans of the band, not of the label.
honestly, if i had the chance for my band to sell 3 million bucks worth of albums to be left holding $4k in cash at the end, i'd consider that a huge step ahead. the real sticking point is what obligations you're left with to the label at the end, and how long they'll be around for.
I was talking with a guy that owns a small label. When the topic of distribution came up he said the first question asked is "how much do they tour?" Bands that rarely or never go outside of their 100 mi bubble will likely never take that next step. You mentioned all of you have day jobs. Unless you're all willing to quit them to achieve and exploit that next step then you should probably just learn to enjoy the level you're at.
Although I'm not signed to one of those labels, I think the answer is really as simple as: you make it economically beneficial to them. Are you guys profiting currently? If not, how do you plan to make them money? Demonstrate that you have a large fan base and the rest should fall into place; that's the hard part.
None of those things that you want to do still require a label. Pre-internet you couldn't get your music all across the country. You couldn't just walk up to Tower with a bunch of self-pressed cd's and expect them to take them and especially not nationally. With bandcamp and itunes you now get a nice chunk of the money from each download and your record is global instantly. As for breaking into new markets...you've got to tour or hope you become an internet sensation. I've known guys that have played their first shows in a new band on the road...obviously nobody knew who they were at the time since they didn't even exist before these shows. Play a city you want to break into 3 or 4 times in rapid succession and hope you can get some sympathetic ears. These people didn't have tons of connections in those other cities, they just made a few phone calls and then talked to the bands they played with to try and get more shows. Unless you really need an advanced to record in Abbey Road and want a big name director to make your first video a label is rarely going to do anything for you.
Big corpse or small corpse, either way, tying yourself to a dying thing is not a good plan. Everything a label can do can be achieved by putting some effort in. If you can't be bothered to put the effort in to your music, why would you expect a label to take up your slack? If a label is genuinely interested in spreading your music for the sake of it being good music, they don't need to sign you and tie you to a contract, you just licence the music to them to press and distribute, and have no obligations to them.
I've got some friends on holy mountain. I think they got connects through word of mouth, a friend of a friend, and got on a decent bill down in the city for some minor festival and not long after that they got a deal. They seem to do great distro for the band, as their disc is on best buy, walmart, and cool record stores in the uk and all, which is pretty broad and evidently wider than the average band could do on their own. I think their gigs are mainly lined up via other bands they know and not so much the label. Looks like I might try out playing synth with them again (I did so a few years ago, pre-label), so maybe I'll know more.
I don't buy the "labels can't do anything you can't," stuff. That's true in principle, but they have tremendous resources in place that you would have to build from scratch. Most importantly, they have established connections that would take years to build. That's never going away, internet or not. What are the chances that you personally are going to build up the reputation and following big enough to, say, tour with Orange Goblin without any help from labels? If that is the case, where are all the examples of these bands that are doing this sort of thing? I'm sure there are some, but most non-local bands I ever hear are involved with a label of some kind. There's too much work involved with booking national tours and shit when starting from scratch for a few guys with day jobs.
Quote from: AgentofOblivion on October 05, 2012, 12:42:29 PM
I don't buy the "labels can't do anything you can't," stuff. That's true in principle, but they have tremendous resources in place that you would have to build from scratch. Most importantly, they have established connections that would take years to build. That's never going away, internet or not. What are the chances that you personally are going to build up the reputation and following big enough to, say, tour with Orange Goblin without any help from labels? If that is the case, where are all the examples of these bands that are doing this sort of thing? I'm sure there are some, but most non-local bands I ever hear are involved with a label of some kind. There's too much work involved with booking national tours and shit when starting from scratch for a few guys with day jobs.
This is kind of a double edged sword. Bands that work hard and do their own thing, and make a name for themselves on their own, usually get a phone call from a label. Its not the other way around.
There are a lot of people that will buy something from Small Stone, just because its on SS. Same for a number of labels.
Labels dont book tours. Booking agents do. Booking agents wont generally work with you unless you can get a draw in a number of towns across the country. Generally you cant do this without a label, or some sort of name for yourself.
Booking a tour just takes time. It wont always be awesome, but you have to keep doing it. Its the same thing as booking shows in your home town. Youre probably not going to have an awesome first show. Same way as youre probably not going to have an awesome first tour. But if your band is good, and you go back to that town again, you'll start to notice some change.
You can look at a band like Red Fang. They released a record on a tiny label which was really just a label putting their name on it. They then made an awesome video that blew up. They also toured the shit out of the country on their own. When it came time to release another record they had choices when it came to going to a label. But they toured their asses off! They also dont suck.
Not to mention the cred that can come from being on a label. You could be the raddest band on the planet but if you only have a bandcamp page Decibel or some other magazine wont really give you legit coverage (if you care about that shit). Plus if a touring band is coming through my town I know "Profound Lore" on the flyer doesnt hurt turnout. Just sayin. Maybe the Decibel thing is unimportant, but I dont see too many cats,even on this board, reviewing or hyping unsigned bands. With that said, most contracts kinda suck.
Actually I take that back. I can't stand reviews anyhow. The Red Fang model is the best. Tour and kill it and if you wanna be on a label they will find you.
True, you're not likely to play Madison Square without a major but you can easily play the bigges places that any stoner/doom band around if you have the audience and the labels won't/can't build that for you. You may get a small boost by signing to Southern Lord but people aren't label loyalists like they used to be. Everything that label does for you comes at a cost both financial and in control. Is that cost worth it to you? That's a different answer for each person. I wouldn't count SST as a real label at the time of Black Flag since it was just Greg but 30's year later despite the monopoly major labels had back then Black Flag is still well known. Neurosis does fine without a label and touring...true it helped to have label support to establish their name but that was years ago. Large clubs won't book you without an audience, labels of any resources (as meager as they are today) without an audience. They're making an investment and that has nothing to do with songs. Man's Ruin was a label ran solely for the sake of good music and it bankrupted Kozik. You can book your own small tours, draw an audience, create an Internet presence on your own and release your own videos on YouTube for nearly nothing today and you can record a great sounding record for nearly nothing as well. A label might get you some opening slot playing for a decent band or a shitty band and you'll be playing in front of a few dozen people while everyone is still in line or outside smoking. You might also get a label that chooses the art work and track order for you, books you with lame bands and even sits on your record without releasing it. You may wish to hold out for a label that cares more about integrity and art more than money but they are few, far between and short-lived. Faustian deals are out there and some may survive the cost but its just not necessary anymore.
But the fact that you can record, release, and put videos out easier than ever also means there is a whole bunch of terrible shit out there.
I usually give a band a little more credit if a label has put steaks behind them.
Take a band like Dwellers. None of you would have heard of them, if Small Stone hadnt put their record out. And they are a GREAT band!
I still haven't heard of them or then again maybe I have but forgot them because they didn't interest me. I will give them a listen later though but that's based on your recommendation not because of label promotion. I buy dozens of records each month and rarely do I know what label they're on. I also buy tons of stuff on bandcamp from bands with and without labels. In fact, many labels are the kiss of death for bands to me. Victory was cool like 20 years ago but is now just the worst crap ever, relapse is synonymous with generic death and grind to me. There's tons of shit records on labels too.
I think, and this'll sound strange coming from a misanthrope like me, but what you guys need isn't a label but a manager. Not the take 20% off the top kind of manager, but the kind who is interested in the band, will punt them to promoters, labels, other managers etc.
You want someone to get you more gigs and better gigs, and more exposure, that's not what a label does, they sell their product, not the band, their product, and they will always have their own interests before yours, the manager won't care what label owns the other bands on the bill, if they're a big name, they want you on there.
Plus, you know what a PITA it is trying to book your own tours, I'd gladly give the 20% of bog-all that we make to save myself that hassle. Don't fall in love with your manager though, there may come a time you have to get another one, if you move to a different level, or if your manager start deteriorating due to rock n roll excesses ;)
QuoteBands that rarely or never go outside of their 100 mi bubble will likely never take that next step. You mentioned all of you have day jobs. Unless you're all willing to quit them to achieve and exploit that next step then you should probably just learn to enjoy the level you're at.
Look at bands like Blood ceremony, Sons of Otis, Electric Magma- all three of those bands have achieved exactly the kind of success we're looking for and i know for a fact because these bands are from my hometown and i've talked to members in all of them that they never toured hard before they got signed lol. If anything they only toured BECAUSE they got signed to an indie label. times have changed and the industry has changed-you dont even have to be a musician to see this.
i never said we're "unwilling to tour"- i meant that we dont need to make a living from playing music because we make a decent living from our jobs (i'm a licensed carpenter and the drummer is a truck driver-the bass player is another story altogether). if anything these are the perfect day jobs that would allow us to tour almost whenever we want.
i think you misunderstood where i was coming from-such is the interweb.
Quote from: Cursed71 on October 05, 2012, 01:40:52 PM
Actually I take that back. I can't stand reviews anyhow. The Red Fang model is the best. Tour and kill it and if you wanna be on a label they will find you.
Rick Rubin said (when talking about how to get signed nowadays) "I don't want to hear your band... I want to
hear about your band".
ok- i see how my previous post might come off as us being "lazy"-but we're not. we're just at a point where we see a flaw in the current model of what it takes get exposure and we want to explore our options. we've all been in touring bands before and know the pro's and con's of that.
i really am taking all the responses in and hearing a lot of valid opinions. and a few bad ones too haha
Are you good enough to get signed?
no we're terrible. we dont actually play instruments, we just fart into microphones.
http://www.reverbnation.com/galaxiesintheriver
http://anyandallrecords.com/
Record deals are pointless when it comes to the Internet and new technology. You make make quality sounding music and release it on the Internet for 100% profit. You want to pay a record label to market you? Market yourself. You know all the websites to go to where stoner rockers hang out. If they like your music then they will be your marketers
Quote from: skydogdiesel on October 06, 2012, 12:27:20 PM
no we're terrible. we dont actually play instruments, we just fart into microphones.
You should get an all female band and play the art-rock scenester shows as Captain Queefheart.
Captain Beeflaps
I'm signed to a subsidiary of a company that makes VCRs and telegraphs. I was woo'd by an A&R guy in a satin baseball jacket with a ponytail who said, "I'm gonna make you a star, baby!" over a giant plate of cocaine in the back of a limo. It's 1979.
QuoteYou should get an all female band and play the art-rock scenester shows as Captain Queefheart.
hahahahahahah!!!!! nice one...
Quote from: Demon Lung on October 06, 2012, 02:52:32 PM
Record deals are pointless when it comes to the Internet and new technology. You make make quality sounding music and release it on the Internet for 100% profit. You want to pay a record label to market you? Market yourself. You know all the websites to go to where stoner rockers hang out. If they like your music then they will be your marketers
Whenever I see people give others advice like this, I have to ask - and I mean this with all due respect - how many labels have you turned down then?
Quote from: koi on October 08, 2012, 01:16:39 AM
Quote from: Demon Lung on October 06, 2012, 02:52:32 PM
Record deals are pointless when it comes to the Internet and new technology. You make make quality sounding music and release it on the Internet for 100% profit. You want to pay a record label to market you? Market yourself. You know all the websites to go to where stoner rockers hang out. If they like your music then they will be your marketers
Whenever I see people give others advice like this, I have to ask - and I mean this with all due respect - how many labels have you turned down then?
Well then, what's your experience with small stone? What have they done for you that you couldn't do for yourself? Do you think you've benefitted from the relationship? Have they benefitted from the relationship? How would you like to progress with your relationship? Do you see your band continuing to work with them, another label or no label in the near future? Why?
Benefits, yes. Distro and licensing connections. Good shows, tours, etc. If Demon Lung was strictly referring to what a band is able to do DIY online, sans label, then I kind of agree there. But it'll only take you so far, and the next step will be whatever success means to you personally. I don't consider my band to be "big", or "out there", or whatever. Did some touring, played some underground fests, did the DIY thing, self-funded 3 crappy records. Then, found myself in the right places at the right time. Most of them having to do with finding killer musicians to play with. Cause the label wouldn't be there without that, to be sure.
Get out there and play with some good bands who will put in a good word for you. Get your 10,000 hours in. That's my advice.
Quote from: koi on October 08, 2012, 03:50:27 AM
Benefits, yes. Distro and licensing connections. Good shows, tours, etc. If Demon Lung was strictly referring to what a band is able to do DIY online, sans label, then I kind of agree there. But it'll only take you so far, and the next step will be whatever success means to you personally. I don't consider my band to be "big", or "out there", or whatever. Did some touring, played some underground fests, did the DIY thing, self-funded 3 crappy records. Then, found myself in the right places at the right time. Most of them having to do with finding killer musicians to play with. Cause the label wouldn't be there without that, to be sure.
Get out there and play with some good bands who will put in a good word for you. Get your 10,000 hours in. That's my advice.
Bravo. It's so easy to say "Record labels are bad, evil entities!" Bands wouldn't work with them if they didn't offer benefits. That's not to say it's impossible to succeed without them, but connections make everything much easier and decent labels certainly have those. Every one I've worked with so far has been incredibly helpful and it's been a symbiotic type of thing. I don't know why a big indie label would be any different. Sure there's costs, but both parties can benefit without anyone being fucked over.
It won't much matter...they're on the wrong end of an exponential curve of extinction. They're disappearing faster than ever before.
Quote from: clockwork green on October 08, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
It won't much matter...they're on the wrong end of an exponential curve of extinction. They're disappearing faster than ever before.
This means when your label goes down, all your contacts and goodwill and suchlike goes with them. Put your own effort it, and all that is for keeps, even if you move on to new bands.
Quote from: clockwork green on October 08, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
It won't much matter...they're on the wrong end of an exponential curve of extinction. They're disappearing faster than ever before.
I think that's a narrow perspective, but one shared by lots of people right now. I don't see them as being on an extinction curve. Labels "as you've known them for the last 3 decades" is what you should be saying.
Look, everyone is good at something. Why do you think labels came into existence in the first place? Because most musicians simply suck at the business end of it. Period. There's a lot of disciplines involved in getting all the moving parts working just right. The formula for success involves many ingredients. Maybe, if you're lucky, you'll be in a band where one guy has an MBA, another an understanding of the law, trademarks, and copyrights, and another simply has the right connections. That, on top of everyone being top class players. Try having zero muscle behind your project, then finding out some shady overseas "music service" has been selling your music and keeping 100% of the profits.
Seriously though, horses for courses, making a living as a musician sucks (ask Danny G.), trying to get money as a musician sucks, I'm just interested in getting it out there, especially now the medium doesn't cost anything, with things like bandcamp. I like the heavyhound business model, if there were like bands in my area, I'd record them for free and put it out there too.
None of that, of course, helps you get your euro-gigs and festi-gigs, see previous comment about getting a manager.
Quote from: koi on October 08, 2012, 03:50:27 AM
Benefits, yes. Distro and licensing connections. Good shows, tours, etc. If Demon Lung was strictly referring to what a band is able to do DIY online, sans label, then I kind of agree there. But it'll only take you so far, and the next step will be whatever success means to you personally. I don't consider my band to be "big", or "out there", or whatever. Did some touring, played some underground fests, did the DIY thing, self-funded 3 crappy records. Then, found myself in the right places at the right time. Most of them having to do with finding killer musicians to play with. Cause the label wouldn't be there without that, to be sure.
Get out there and play with some good bands who will put in a good word for you. Get your 10,000 hours in. That's my advice.
oh you are under the assumption that there's money to be made in heavy music.
Just to state the obvious, the old Albini article was directed at major labels. Albini supported the mission of indie labels and 'big' indies (jumbo shrimp?) like Touch & Go.
Small Stone, Holy Mountain, etc are like today's Touch & Go, arguably.
Focus, people.
Quote from: koi on October 08, 2012, 01:16:39 AM
Whenever I see people give others advice like this, I have to ask - and I mean this with all due respect - how many labels have you turned down then?
Two. One in this band, quite early on, one in a previous project. Neither from labels I'd heard of.
Quote from: koi on October 08, 2012, 04:44:38 PM
Quote from: clockwork green on October 08, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
It won't much matter...they're on the wrong end of an exponential curve of extinction. They're disappearing faster than ever before.
I think that's a narrow perspective, but one shared by lots of people right now. I don't see them as being on an extinction curve. Labels "as you've known them for the last 3 decades" is what you should be saying.
Look, everyone is good at something. Why do you think labels came into existence in the first place? Because most musicians simply suck at the business end of it. Period. There's a lot of disciplines involved in getting all the moving parts working just right. The formula for success involves many ingredients. Maybe, if you're lucky, you'll be in a band where one guy has an MBA, another an understanding of the law, trademarks, and copyrights, and another simply has the right connections. That, on top of everyone being top class players. Try having zero muscle behind your project, then finding out some shady overseas "music service" has been selling your music and keeping 100% of the profits.
Who's making enough money to even worry about European royalties? Why bother spending $10,000 in lawyer fees to recoup a few hundred bucks from Spotify which is going broke. If High On Fire and all their label power still has day jobs and Matt Pike drives a 30 year old Mazda then what's the point of the label? They can be plenty broke on their own. For the rest of us, get a good booking agent so you can tour for a couple of weeks a year, send your shit out to some blogs and magazines and maybe save up from your day jobs and local gigs to fly to one of the bigger festivals and that's about all you can hope for. If you want more then maybe you can consider hiring a manager but the label is just trying to bundle things for you and that doesn't work for you cable bill and it rarely works for you records. If you sign to a label then you're hiring a guy to try and sell your songs anyways, you might as well do it directly or attempt to pool your money with some other local bands if you really want your songs in movies and TV. Giving up control and always comes at a cost but passing it off to a label just puts too many layers between you and your particular goal.
Quote from: Demon Lung on October 08, 2012, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: koi on October 08, 2012, 03:50:27 AM
Benefits, yes. Distro and licensing connections. Good shows, tours, etc. If Demon Lung was strictly referring to what a band is able to do DIY online, sans label, then I kind of agree there. But it'll only take you so far, and the next step will be whatever success means to you personally. I don't consider my band to be "big", or "out there", or whatever. Did some touring, played some underground fests, did the DIY thing, self-funded 3 crappy records. Then, found myself in the right places at the right time. Most of them having to do with finding killer musicians to play with. Cause the label wouldn't be there without that, to be sure.
Get out there and play with some good bands who will put in a good word for you. Get your 10,000 hours in. That's my advice.
oh you are under the assumption that there's money to be made in heavy music.
I never said that.
Quote from: clockwork green on October 08, 2012, 11:32:02 PM
Quote from: koi on October 08, 2012, 04:44:38 PM
Quote from: clockwork green on October 08, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
It won't much matter...they're on the wrong end of an exponential curve of extinction. They're disappearing faster than ever before.
I think that's a narrow perspective, but one shared by lots of people right now. I don't see them as being on an extinction curve. Labels "as you've known them for the last 3 decades" is what you should be saying.
Look, everyone is good at something. Why do you think labels came into existence in the first place? Because most musicians simply suck at the business end of it. Period. There's a lot of disciplines involved in getting all the moving parts working just right. The formula for success involves many ingredients. Maybe, if you're lucky, you'll be in a band where one guy has an MBA, another an understanding of the law, trademarks, and copyrights, and another simply has the right connections. That, on top of everyone being top class players. Try having zero muscle behind your project, then finding out some shady overseas "music service" has been selling your music and keeping 100% of the profits.
Who's making enough money to even worry about European royalties? Why bother spending $10,000 in lawyer fees to recoup a few hundred bucks from Spotify which is going broke. If High On Fire and all their label power still has day jobs and Matt Pike drives a 30 year old Mazda then what's the point of the label? They can be plenty broke on their own. For the rest of us, get a good booking agent so you can tour for a couple of weeks a year, send your shit out to some blogs and magazines and maybe save up from your day jobs and local gigs to fly to one of the bigger festivals and that's about all you can hope for. If you want more then maybe you can consider hiring a manager but the label is just trying to bundle things for you and that doesn't work for you cable bill and it rarely works for you records. If you sign to a label then you're hiring a guy to try and sell your songs anyways, you might as well do it directly or attempt to pool your money with some other local bands if you really want your songs in movies and TV. Giving up control and always comes at a cost but passing it off to a label just puts too many layers between you and your particular goal.
Both of your responses focus on money and giving up control of your tunes. You don't have to be concerned with the former, or commit to the latter. Work the deal you want, and if you can't, then pass until you get the one you want. In which seems to have been the case for Hemisaurus.
Who's making enough money? Some people actually are, believe it or not. And when someone is stealing your shit and actually selling it illegally, you either say "fuck it", or do something about it. You bring up Matt Pike and his car right after that statement. How fucking lame. Do you measure success by the car someone drives then? You brought up Pike, so let's use him to further your example. He DID put his entire life into his music. So if someone is out there ripping him off, he better damn well have someone in his corner to help him set it straight. Because it's his livelihood at that point.
All I'm trying to do is give a perspective from the other side, because it was asked for. But you both are intent on shutting down the idea of labels no matter what. Your way is not the way to go for everyone. And neither is mine. Everyone's got their own choice to make.
I never once claimed that I think there's money to be made in this, or that I have allusions that I will some day. I've invested in my education and my career. Without music, I'm totally fine. But I'm also an ASCAP member, and I do make some money from this. If you're not, sorry.
So regardless of your pessimistic outlooks about the subject - labels, in some sort of capacity, will work for someone people Whether they become more of a "union", or a collective. Whatever creative ways people can come up with to use power in numbers to get the music out there. That's what I'm talking about.
Quote from: clockwork green on October 08, 2012, 11:32:02 PMFor the rest of us, get a good booking agent so you can tour for a couple of weeks a year, send your shit out to some blogs and magazines and maybe save up from your day jobs and local gigs to fly to one of the bigger festivals and that's about all you can hope for. If you want more then maybe you can consider hiring a manager but the label is just trying to bundle things for you and that doesn't work for you cable bill and it rarely works for you records. If you sign to a label then you're hiring a guy to try and sell your songs anyways, you might as well do it directly or attempt to pool your money with some other local bands if you really want your songs in movies and TV. Giving up control and always comes at a cost but passing it off to a label just puts too many layers between you and your particular goal.
Can you get a good booking agent without being on a label? Can you get reviewed on blogs and in magazines, or play at an out-of-town festival, or hire a quality manager, without already being on a label? Not every good band can, IMO.
I wouldn't say that being on a label is the be-all and end-all (for one thing, not all labels are equal, and why divide the money with people who sometimes didn't do anything for you) but for the bands who are interested and ready, I can't see any harm in trying. If you can't get somebody to release your record then release it yourself, sure. Don't let it stop you. There are more good bands than opportunities on good labels. But I don't see the point in not investigating a label deal, if your band is good enough. If nobody bites, you can always DIY.
I checked out the original link, it's instrumental stoner rock with a desert vibe. I don't know how marketable that is, at the moment. I would say if nobody wants to release your record, be prepared to DIY.
Quote from: koi on October 09, 2012, 12:41:56 AM
Quote from: clockwork green on October 08, 2012, 11:32:02 PM
Quote from: koi on October 08, 2012, 04:44:38 PM
Quote from: clockwork green on October 08, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
It won't much matter...they're on the wrong end of an exponential curve of extinction. They're disappearing faster than ever before.
I think that's a narrow perspective, but one shared by lots of people right now. I don't see them as being on an extinction curve. Labels "as you've known them for the last 3 decades" is what you should be saying.
Look, everyone is good at something. Why do you think labels came into existence in the first place? Because most musicians simply suck at the business end of it. Period. There's a lot of disciplines involved in getting all the moving parts working just right. The formula for success involves many ingredients. Maybe, if you're lucky, you'll be in a band where one guy has an MBA, another an understanding of the law, trademarks, and copyrights, and another simply has the right connections. That, on top of everyone being top class players. Try having zero muscle behind your project, then finding out some shady overseas "music service" has been selling your music and keeping 100% of the profits.
Who's making enough money to even worry about European royalties? Why bother spending $10,000 in lawyer fees to recoup a few hundred bucks from Spotify which is going broke. If High On Fire and all their label power still has day jobs and Matt Pike drives a 30 year old Mazda then what's the point of the label? They can be plenty broke on their own. For the rest of us, get a good booking agent so you can tour for a couple of weeks a year, send your shit out to some blogs and magazines and maybe save up from your day jobs and local gigs to fly to one of the bigger festivals and that's about all you can hope for. If you want more then maybe you can consider hiring a manager but the label is just trying to bundle things for you and that doesn't work for you cable bill and it rarely works for you records. If you sign to a label then you're hiring a guy to try and sell your songs anyways, you might as well do it directly or attempt to pool your money with some other local bands if you really want your songs in movies and TV. Giving up control and always comes at a cost but passing it off to a label just puts too many layers between you and your particular goal.
Both of your responses focus on money and giving up control of your tunes. You don't have to be concerned with the former, or commit to the latter. Work the deal you want, and if you can't, then pass until you get the one you want. In which seems to have been the case for Hemisaurus.
Who's making enough money? Some people actually are, believe it or not. And when someone is stealing your shit and actually selling it illegally, you either say "fuck it", or do something about it. You bring up Matt Pike and his car right after that statement. How fucking lame. Do you measure success by the car someone drives then? You brought up Pike, so let's use him to further your example. He DID put his entire life into his music. So if someone is out there ripping him off, he better damn well have someone in his corner to help him set it straight. Because it's his livelihood at that point.
All I'm trying to do is give a perspective from the other side, because it was asked for. But you both are intent on shutting down the idea of labels no matter what. Your way is not the way to go for everyone. And neither is mine. Everyone's got their own choice to make.
I never once claimed that I think there's money to be made in this, or that I have allusions that I will some day. I've invested in my education and my career. Without music, I'm totally fine. But I'm also an ASCAP member, and I do make some money from this. If you're not, sorry.
So regardless of your pessimistic outlooks about the subject - labels, in some sort of capacity, will work for someone people Whether they become more of a "union", or a collective. Whatever creative ways people can come up with to use power in numbers to get the music out there. That's what I'm talking about.
You brought money into this my only point with Pike's car was that there's not nearly enough money in this to making fighting over royalties...you'll spend more in the lawyer than the royalties are worth. I've only used an attorney once and it was $350 an hour for the cheapest one I could find and I honestly doubt your spotify royalties are more than an hour or two of that rate...sadly that's a ton of plays.
They funny thing is that you find what I'm saying pessimistic. Sure I think the death of labels small and large is a good thing but the power that every musician now has is amazing. Never before have musicians and music listeners had so much available so easily. Fuck the money. I've spent a lot of money just to be moderately happy with my tone to play a handful of shows a year for people that don't care and I would never give that up because the songs mean something to me. How many people really get to do something this important, intimate and personal? Making a living would be fine but is not at all necessary.
booking agent, maybe a better idea than manager, I like it. ;D
Small Stone is an excellent label, and koi/Dwellers have clearly benefitted from their association with the label (some peeps will buy SS stuff unseen/unheard) and distro.
However, if you're not willing/able to tour extensively, you'd probably be better off without a label—that's usually part of the deal: they manufacture/distribute; you tour yer asses off & sell lotsa CDs & merch.
I would love for you to find a good booking agent that will work with you, without some sort of label support.
Quote from: rayinreverse on October 09, 2012, 04:10:38 PM
I would love for you to find a good booking agent that will work with you, without some sort of label support.
This. It's hard to find a good booking agent
with a label.
Quote from: Worthless Willie on October 09, 2012, 04:28:37 PM
Quote from: rayinreverse on October 09, 2012, 04:10:38 PM
I would love for you to find a good booking agent that will work with you, without some sort of label support.
This. It's hard to find a good booking agent with a label.
Exactly!
Go to somebody that books tours, and ask them to book for you. They'll tell you to get fucked.
check out Tone Deaf Touring's site. Every band they book for is on a label.
Just an idea: If you kill ALL the labels, Tonedeaf Touring will have no choice but to book your band's tour.
I'm wondering, is this an age related thing?
I'm much more DIY oriented, now people are saying you can't do it yourself, you need to have a label, copyright lawyer, manager and booking agent? This with the advent of the internet?
I guess it also depends on what you want out of your music.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 09, 2012, 04:56:30 PM
I'm much more DIY oriented, now people are saying you can't do it yourself, you need to have a label, copyright lawyer, manager and booking agent? This with the advent of the internet?
I don't see anyone making the claim that you NEED all of that.
It just makes it a lot easier if you have it.
Does Nate at Nanotear only book signed bands? I've known some unsigned bands that have booked tours with folks here in the Bay Area. We've had people willing to book a tour for us and we've self-released a record (we've had far too many issues to get a tour done). Maybe it's a location thing. I know there are a lot of Midwest guys here but aside from 3-4 folks here, I have no idea where anyone is from.
Right outside Austin, Texas.
I guess the bottom line is that if you're not good enough no one will work with you. That's when you use a distribution deal. That's what we did. On a swedish label with quite good distribution. :)
And for us there has been a obvious line. Before the first record and after... But perhaps mostly how people, bands, fans, gigplaces look at you. All of a sudden there's a little bit more interest in what you do...
Booking managers at least nowerdays reply and mags does reviews. Some cool gigs get booked. But still, no flow... Always struggling to get things working.You can't get a way from the DIY when it comes to promotion, booking etc. So the bottom line once again. If people doesn't think your good enough no one will work with you. (Which doesn't mean that I agree with that at all. No way, I'm proud of the music.)
We're never gonna be a big touring band what so ever. We can't and we won't. But we have a foot in, cause we can... But it also means loosing money lol.
Hang on you're saying your not good enough ???
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, one mans meat is another mans poison, and all that.
This is one of the best discussions we've had on here in awhile...legit disagreement and unique insights.
I talked to a friend last night and while his band is on metal blade, their label did nothing for their tour and the guy they used also books any band willing to pay him.
My thing is if I ever sign with someone it's because I just don't want to deal with certain hassles and I'm willing to take a hit for that. Ideally I'd love to control every aspect of the band but I don't begrudge anyone for getting help. The great thing about today is that you don't have the same limits that bands used to have. You can make your own life.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 10, 2012, 12:14:44 PM
Hang on you're saying your not good enough ???
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, one mans meat is another mans poison, and all that.
No that's not really what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that when it comes to record deals someone elses opinion is the one that counts. Or perhaps knowing the right people, somtimes just pure luck...
Regardless what you think yourself or the effort you put in.
I dont think record labels are pointless. I think its pointless to expend extra energy to try and get on one though. The great thing about this day and age, is you can write your own destiny. Spend the time writing good songs, and making a product that you feel good about asking someone to shell out hard earned money for. I think Koi said it best with "how many labels have you turned down?" And if a label ever approaches you, thats when you decide what to do about the label situation. Until then, I think it should be the farthest thing away from your goals.
So they're not pointless, but they're also not worth pursuing.
So the advice is, wait for it to fall into your lap. That's how I've seen it too, it's been luck, fluke, being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right friend of a friend. I don't know of anyone who got their deal by sending in a demo tape, but my mind is also selective and rusty.
Quote from: rayinreverse on October 10, 2012, 03:07:18 PM
I dont think chicks are pointless. I think its pointless to expend extra energy to try and get on one though. The great thing about this day and age, is you can write your own destiny. Spend the time looking good, and making yourself into a product that you feel good about asking some chick to shell out hard earned money for. I think Koi said it best with "how many chicks have you turned down?" And if a chick ever approaches you, thats when you decide what to do about the chick situation. Until then, I think it should be the farthest thing away from your goals.
Totally logical, dude.
we do have distribution with a swedish label too and we DO think our music is good-but it's constantly getting better and better. we dont doubt that we'll find a deal at some point down the road, but we're just hoping for an "extra set of hands" (the label) to help push us along. any exposure is good exposure and labels can do that for your band. for example, my bass player used to play in a band that signed with psychedoomelic records in europe and they got signed just because the singer mailed them a cd. it wasnt rocket science and he didnt wait for an oppurtunity-he took one-and got lucky. And the band was good at what they did.
at the same time, the web makes it really to get your shit out there. when we put our new ep up on reverbnation last year, it was being downloaded a week later, reviewed by music bloggers and was circulating amongst the few stoner rock websites that exist over the world. it was awesome to see that!!! i didnt make it available for download but somehow it ended up in spain, russia, greece and more....
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 10, 2012, 03:15:52 PM
So they're not pointless, but they're also not worth pursuing.
So the advice is, wait for it to fall into your lap. That's how I've seen it too, it's been luck, fluke, being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right friend of a friend. I don't know of anyone who got their deal by sending in a demo tape, but my mind is also selective and rusty.
So far from our mind that we already broke up and started new projects when the label approached us. no band to sign, so just licenced the music and put it out.
My band is signed with an indie label. When I say "signed" I don't mean as in we have a legally binding contract that requires lawyers. We've struck a deal with this label, they press 500 copies of our CD and in return we get 100 of them for free. We still own the music and if they'd want to press more than the 400 copies they already have they'd have to go through us. This is the normal deal these days from what I understand, you get some type of percentage of how many records they press. But be aware that if you go this deal you still would have to do a lot yourself (we've done the mixing and mastering ourselves on all our stuff). However I'd say this is a great deal to start off, you get someone who's mutually interested in your success.
As for promotion and so forth, I posted my band's demo on Reddit and it gave 1200 plays in just one day - you don't have to rely on big labels to get you listeners.
Quote from: Pundan on October 11, 2012, 01:06:33 AM
As for promotion and so forth, I posted my band's demo on Reddit and it gave 1200 plays in just one day - you don't have to rely on big labels to get you listeners.
I'm not familiar with Reddit. Can you elaborate? Isn't that a website for voting up/down news articles/memes...etc?
Quote from: AgentofOblivion on October 11, 2012, 11:14:11 AM
Quote from: Pundan on October 11, 2012, 01:06:33 AM
As for promotion and so forth, I posted my band's demo on Reddit and it gave 1200 plays in just one day - you don't have to rely on big labels to get you listeners.
I'm not familiar with Reddit. Can you elaborate? Isn't that a website for voting up/down news articles/memes...etc?
Absolutely, and they have a section on the site called /r/metal (http://www.reddit.com/r/metal). I'm not saying Reddit is the only place, but spreading your music on the internet is usually something good.