Anyone here doing this, even as a power amp? I hate the thought of having to spend a lot of money on retubing and lugging around an 80+ pound amp but the idea of getting one of these beasts has gotten into my head and it doesn't want to leave. Loud as fuck with tons of headroom is the idea. That Peavey 400 is probably pushing it for weight but I think I could tolerate an Ampeg or Fender. The local GC has a Bassman for $900 right now and I don't imagine even post '70s SVTs go for much less than that used. The Crate Blue Voodoo 300 watt model is near impossible to find.
Would two 300 watt cabs with 12" speakers be enough to handle this type of amp so long as the bass isn't cranked?
(http://acsbore.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/not-this-shit-again.gif)
100 watt guitar amp's not loud enough? Hard to believe.
Get another cab if you need more volume.
Nothing wrong with using a bass head for guitar, it can sound burly. But do you really need to spend the money for watts you don't need?
You don't need 300-400 watts for guitar. Everybody thanks you in a advance
Seriously, more cabs. 2 4x12's will fucking wreck most rooms. I'm pretty certain between the three people that JUST posted in this thread, and myself, that is a fair assessment. You need to get decent cabs. Really, really. Buy two peavey 4x12s. Go do it, now.
It'll sound super glassy and depending on the eq of the preamp, it might sound mostly normal or really off since the highs and mid's will be cutting different frequencies than you're used to.
I might catch flak for this but since you wouldn't begin to approach power tube distortion and bass amps aren't really built to have beautiful, cascading preamp gain you're going to get a super clean sound with this amp...you might as well just get a high wattage solid state amp. I often don't hear a hell of a lot of difference between super clean tube amps and super clean solid state amps and the differences I do hear are usually accountable to the speakers or preamps. Plus if you got a solid state amp you could have 1500-2000 watts for that price range and it would give you an interesting conversation starter. An extra cab is probably the way to go or if you're running two cabs, then an extra head will give you volume and some really cool tone options (like running one of them cleanish and the other dirty, or running one with a bunch of mid's cranked and the other really scooped or even just stereo effects which are always fun)
100 watts is no where near enough unless you are running through a pa. I would want at least 1000 watts to feel comfortable in any playing situation.
Quote from: spookstrickland on November 21, 2012, 04:49:38 PM
100 watts is no where near enough unless you are running through a pa. I would want at least 1000 watts to feel comfortable in any playing situation.
!!
wtf is the matter with you people? Are you deaf?
What?
You people arent playing stadiums, christ. I use two 4x12s, a Model T and Beta lead, and that's getting into "what the fuck why cant i hear the drums" zone. Add in bass, and you'll be loud as fuuuuck.
^Exactly. How the hell isn't 100W way more than sufficient?
Liquid, didn't you have a Matamp, then a Laney AOR, then down to a solid state Ampeg? Roll how you shall my man but you're in reverse here (from where I'm lookin')...
High wattage rigs are what you need when playing with Insanely loud drummers. Plus if you tune down really low you need more wattage something like doubling your wattage for every whole step down you tune. So if you are doing a lot of drop A tuning with a Mother Fucking Loud drummer 1000 watts is not really out of order.
Spook, not everyone on here plays in drop A. And my Acoustic 220 seemed to handle drop A fine when I tuned to it last week. And that thing is about 125W @ 4Ohm.
No offense, but I thought we evolved past this noise once we landed on this here new fangled site. If anyone is running 100watt amp and it's not loud enough to cut through three drummers, two bass players, and five other guitarists, they're just plain doing it wrong.
Quote from: Jake on November 21, 2012, 07:06:08 PM
If anyone is running 100watt amp and it's not loud enough to cut through three drummers, two bass players, and five other guitarists, they're just plain doing it wrong.
This sounds like the sort of shit people who actually play guitars in bands, that play gigs are record and don't want to sound like shit say.
The way I look at it, If you are going to "Bring The Heavy"...BRING THE HEAVY!!!
<----------Insert Fat Guitar Player Joke Here LOL
I Bring The Heavy Like a 68 Chevy
;D
Currently have a 300 watt handling 2x12 and a 300 watt handling 4x12.
So I'm seriously wondering if these two cabs would be enough to handle a 300 watt tube head so long as the bass wasn't cranked.
Also wondering how many solid state watts they could handle. I am thinking about that route too- lighter and cheaper.
The idea of 300 tube watts(maybe bypassing the preamp) is massive headroom so I can crank super loud and avoid- 1. solid state clipping which sounds like shit and melts amps 2. "tube" distortion which produces a Weedeater like tone too quick considering that I'm not going for a sludgy sound.
The Matamp was okay but I didn't like it enough to keep it. Sold it for almost as much as I paid new.
Still have the Laney GH50. It shits the bed very quick when cranked although that would be great for psych/stoner rock(which I am not playing currently). A GH100 would be better but the GH tone isn't what I need for the band and as a power amp it would still probably shit the bed too quick.
The Ampeg SS150 also shits the bed too quick and in fact it took some sort of major dump at practice a couple months ago yet it tests at 150 watts and the tech said it's fine even though it lost half it's volume. Huge mystery that I don't want to spend any real money on. Otherwise a great amp. Great clean tone for pedals.
My friend's Mosvalve 500 SS power amp(about 380 watts at 4 ohms mono I believe) I am currently borrowing also clips when I get it as loud as I want. It's actually not that much louder than my Ampeg and at least at practice the clip light was on steady and it was smelling weird after about 90 minutes of playing. Not cool. Could be that it's old and on the fritz, could be that 380 SS watts isn't enough, I'm not sure. Our bass player(we do tune in B, spook has a point) is on the edge of clipping with his current power amp and his last one would smell like it was melting and stink up my basement. So I know that with solid state you need tons of power. Not sure that I'd feel comfortable with more than 400 or 500 RMS watts into my cabs if peak would be 800 or 1,000.
Any way you slice it it's looking like I need to spend more money and/or sell and upgrade.
We all wear earplugs(the good kind((because we like our hearing, cymbals are fucking loud as you all know and we play metal)) which means we have to crank louder of course. It's ridiculous, yes. Being able to hear when I'm 60 will be nice though.
When I'm up to the edge of clipping and my band mates can't hear me very well and I can't hear me very well I know I need more speakers and/or power. Yes, two 4x12s would be better than one 4x12 and one 2x12 but not by much.
Wondering if anyone here uses a 300 watt tube amp for guitar.
Wondering if 600 watts of speakers would be enough to handle 300 tube watts.
Wondering how much SS power I could put through my cabs which are rated at 600 watts total.
I don't want to find out the hard way.
I'll borrow my friend's 5150(which is I believe 120 watts) and try it out at practice to see how bad it breaks up at high volume with my distortion pedal running through it's preamp. I'll try it's preamp distortion again as well but it's similar to the Laney GH.
I'm doing what I've got to do. I want somewhat/clear crunchy metal power at loud volumes, not sludgy clipping/breaking up metal power at loud volumes. Don't get me wrong, I like crazy break up tones but that's not what I want for this band. Would love to try an Engl or Mesa but I suspect they would break up more soon than I would like at loud volumes.
Will be out of town without internet access until Friday.
Some of you seem a bit irked(or probably are by now if you read this far ;D, smile it's okay), well I'm sorry about that although this thread is more about using 300 tube watts for guitar than it is about using a bass amp for guitar, we've been all over that a million times before I know.
The absolute worst, thinnest, shittiest guitar tone I ever heard was from some clown playing one of those 300w crate voodoo amps. I'm sure he could've easily sounded just as bad with 1/6th of the power. Be interesting to hear it dialled in well, if such a thing can happen
Quote from: Ayek on November 22, 2012, 02:30:29 AM
The absolute worst, thinnest, shittiest guitar tone I ever heard was from some clown playing one of those 300w crate voodoo amps. I'm sure he could've easily sounded just as bad with 1/6th of the power. Be interesting to hear it dialled in well, if such a thing can happen
He probably scooped the mids too much. I'd dial it in as well as possible and then probably just decide to run my Amptweaker TightMetal pedal through it's clean channel and be in tone heaven. It's likely that earth would instantly crumble to bits but I would die with a huge smile on my face.
Super hard to find amp though and probably very pricey.
Get more speakers!
Speaker watt ratings bear no relation to how much power they can take before farting or how loud they go. They just tell you how much heat they can take and nothing else.
Using midrange is what allows you to be able to hear stuff, not power.
Edit: just noticed the cabs, are there 150w guitar 12s? Or is it a cab with bass/PA speakers, mixed with a guitar cab?
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 22, 2012, 05:45:41 AM
Speaker watt ratings bear no relation to how much power they can take before farting or how loud they go. They just tell you how much heat they can take and nothing else.
Using midrange is what allows you to be able to hear stuff, not power.
Edit: just noticed the cabs, are there 150w guitar 12s? Or is it a cab with bass/PA speakers, mixed with a guitar cab?
Eminence Swamp Thangs (gtr) in the 2x12 and the speakers in the 4x12 have no labels, got that cab on Craigslist for cheap. It's 20-25 years old but I'm pretty sure they are guitar speakers.
Quote from: moose23 on November 22, 2012, 03:44:38 AM
Get more speakers!
I'm sure that would help. I could pick up a couple random used 4x12s at Guitar Center for pretty cheap although I would think they'd have to be 8 ohm cabs like the 2 I have. Would four 8 ohm cabs make a 2 ohm load? I definitely don't want to haul 4 cabs to gigs though.
Or rather than build on what I have I could ditch what I've got and custom order two 4x12s with 150-200 watt speakers and then perhaps get an 800 to 1,000 watt SS power amp but that would still cost a ton of money.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 22, 2012, 07:44:00 AM
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 22, 2012, 05:45:41 AM
Speaker watt ratings bear no relation to how much power they can take before farting or how loud they go. They just tell you how much heat they can take and nothing else.
Using midrange is what allows you to be able to hear stuff, not power.
Edit: just noticed the cabs, are there 150w guitar 12s? Or is it a cab with bass/PA speakers, mixed with a guitar cab?
Eminence Swamp Thangs (gtr) in the 2x12 and the speakers in the 4x12 have no labels, got that cab on Craigslist for cheap. It's 20-25 years old but I'm pretty sure they are guitar speakers.
There ya go. Replace the speakers in the 4x12 with something loud like Swam Thangs or Wizards and you'll be
quadrupling your perceived wattage.
Yeah, get more efficient speakers. It can make a big difference. Look for speakers that are rated at (oh, say) 100dB and up (100, 101, 102...). You want speakers that are relatively accurate (aka uncolored) and efficient.
Probably the economical way to do this is sell the current cab, and buy a different used cab with the speakers you want. Buying speakers ala carte seems like the expensive way to do it.
Somebody explain the formula for speaker efficiency vs. perceived loudness/amp wattage, I'm not smart enough to remember. But every extra dB of efficiency means your amp will sound louder. The difference between a cab with speakers rated at 96dB and one with speakers rated at 101 dB should be night and day.
As others mentioned, just get a cab loaded with Eminence Wizards. Those speakers that are loud as fuck and sound good when cranked in front of a 50-100 watt tube amp.
When I auditioned here a few weeks back with my 50 watt jcm 800, I easily kept up with the guy's dual rectumfrier.
Quote from: Lumpy on November 22, 2012, 10:58:40 AM
Somebody explain the formula for speaker efficiency vs. perceived loudness/amp wattage, I'm not smart enough to remember. But every extra dB of efficiency means your amp will sound louder. The difference between a cab with speakers rated at 96dB and one with speakers rated at 101 dB should be night and day.
Every 3db more sensitivity is equivalent to doubling power. But perceived loudness is a whole other thing, where tons of factors are important, but the massive generalisation is midband is most important as that's where your ears work best.
Just get the bass amp, it seems like you're stuck on the idea and who knows, maybe you can pull it off and create something unique with it. The guy in The Body seems to do pretty well with it. If you're looking for classic tones we all know and are familiar with then it probably won't work but if you've got a different sound in your head then it often takes different tools.
Been using a SVT for geetar since '97, works fine for me, I don't think I ever came across the book for proper amplification
I've found Bass amps to work very well for guitar, especially if you get most of your "Sound" from pedals and only use the EQ on the amp sparingly. If you tune down really low a bass amp and cab will serve you well.
Quote from: clockwork green on November 22, 2012, 05:51:51 PM
Just get the bass amp, it seems like you're stuck on the idea and who knows, maybe you can pull it off and create something unique with it. The guy in The Body seems to do pretty well with it. If you're looking for classic tones we all know and are familiar with then it probably won't work but if you've got a different sound in your head then it often takes different tools.
He is a unique example. He used to use a Concert lead on a 9x10, and a multi-thousand watt power amp pushing two fridges. He has no high end, and he never ever plays single notes. I actually worked on his shit while he was here.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 22, 2012, 07:52:08 AM
Quote from: moose23 on November 22, 2012, 03:44:38 AM
Get more speakers!
I'm sure that would help. I could pick up a couple random used 4x12s at Guitar Center for pretty cheap although I would think they'd have to be 8 ohm cabs like the 2 I have. Would four 8 ohm cabs make a 2 ohm load? I definitely don't want to haul 4 cabs to gigs though.
Or rather than build on what I have I could ditch what I've got and custom order two 4x12s with 150-200 watt speakers and then perhaps get an 800 to 1,000 watt SS power amp but that would still cost a ton of money.
Ditch your cabs and get two decent quality 4x12s with decent efficient speakers and you won't need to change your amp.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/24/2y6ureda.jpg)
I however don't dig bass cabs with geetar, boogie's traditional cabs are stellar with it
Quote from: moose23 on November 22, 2012, 03:44:38 AM
Get more speakers!
I'm sure that would help. I could pick up a couple random used 4x12s at Guitar Center for pretty cheap although I would think they'd have to be 8 ohm cabs like the 2 I have. Would four 8 ohm cabs make a 2 ohm load? I definitely don't want to haul 4 cabs to gigs though.
Or rather than build on what I have I could ditch what I've got and custom order two 4x12s with 150-200 watt speakers and then perhaps get an 800 to 1,000 watt SS power amp but that would still cost a ton of money.
[/quote]
Ditch your cabs and get two decent quality 4x12s with decent efficient speakers and you won't need to change your amp.
[/quote]
Quote from: peyotepeddler on November 23, 2012, 04:15:03 PM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/24/2y6ureda.jpg)
I however don't dig bass cabs with geetar, boogie's traditional cabs are stellar with it
Might not be for everyone but I'm a huge fan of 15" bass cabs for downtuned guitar. Buzz seems to really like mixing 15's and 12's as well.
at times I play guitar through my bass rig...
svt-av, 810av, svt-vr, svt-215e
mostly just because I can... :P
Quote from: peyotepeddler on November 22, 2012, 11:07:26 PM
Been using a SVT for geetar since '97, works fine for me, I don't think I ever came across the book for proper amplification
'70s model or 'Classic'? I read that the Classic model has a preamp that is designed more for bass. One just went for about $800 on ebay.
I hear that the new '70s style reissue Asian made model is put together poorly plus they are very pricey.
Quote from: spookstrickland on November 22, 2012, 11:55:12 PM
I've found Bass amps to work very well for guitar, especially if you get most of your "Sound" from pedals and only use the EQ on the amp sparingly. If you tune down really low a bass amp and cab will serve you well.
I've played guitar through bass combos and guitar amps through bass cabs but never guitar through a bass amp and guitar speakers. I am curious. I could just use a bass amp as a power amp with a guitar pre running into it.
Quote from: Lumpy on November 22, 2012, 10:58:40 AM
Probably the economical way to do this is sell the current cab, and buy a different used cab with the speakers you want. Buying speakers ala carte seems like the expensive way to do it.
Maybe although it depends on the company. My 2x12 is a Stage Craft and they make good stuff and sell direct to customers so when you buy them loaded you're basically just buying the speakers from them instead of someone else and you don't actually save money. I think these prices are very nice-
http://www.stagecraftgear.com/servlet/the-Black-Jack-cln-Studio/Categories
Mine- http://www.stagecraftgear.com/servlet/the-13/Black-Jack-212SL-Diagonal/Detail
Quote from: b00gie van on November 22, 2012, 09:58:20 AM
There ya go. Replace the speakers in the 4x12 with something loud like Swam Thangs or Wizards and you'll be quadrupling your perceived wattage.
It's a cheap particle board cab but because of that it's fairly light for it's size. It's basically worthless so I'll just keep it around. Would probably want a higher quality cab if I'm going to spend $300 or $400 on speakers but I'm not actually sure how much difference the wood makes.
Quote from: Instant Dan on November 22, 2012, 11:49:27 AM
As others mentioned, just get a cab loaded with Eminence Wizards. Those speakers that are loud as fuck and sound good when cranked in front of a 50-100 watt tube amp.
When I auditioned here a few weeks back with my 50 watt jcm 800, I easily kept up with the guy's dual rectumfrier.
According to the Eminence website The Wizard is rated at 75 watts and 103 DB, the Swamp Thang(have 2 in my 2x12) is 150 watts and 102 DB.
Quote from: moose23 on November 23, 2012, 02:16:23 PM
Ditch your cabs and get two decent quality 4x12s with decent efficient speakers and you won't need to change your amp.
Huge bucks but I agree that it would help. I went with the 2x12 I have because they are lighter than 4x12 and because they are cheaper(mostly because it's 2 vs 4 speakers) but now I regret it.
Regardless of the cab issue I would still like to either get a powerful solid state power amp or some sort of monster tube head if I can swing it.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 23, 2012, 10:13:57 PM
Quote from: peyotepeddler on November 22, 2012, 11:07:26 PM
Been using a SVT for geetar since '97, works fine for me, I don't think I ever came across the book for proper amplification
'70s model or 'Classic'? I read that the Classic model has a preamp that is designed more for bass. One just went for about $800 on ebay.
I hear that the new '70s style reissue Asian made model is put together poorly plus they are very pricey.
Quote from: spookstrickland on November 22, 2012, 11:55:12 PM
I've found Bass amps to work very well for guitar, especially if you get most of your "Sound" from pedals and only use the EQ on the amp sparingly. If you tune down really low a bass amp and cab will serve you well.
I've played guitar through bass combos and guitar amps through bass cabs but never guitar through a bass amp and guitar speakers. I am curious. I could just use a bass amp as a power amp with a guitar pre running into it.
its a classic model, as in the classic reissued from around that time period, i have no experience with the vietnam made stuff
i went through many amps before i plugged in, it just had a vibe and tone i dug, the fan is a plus when the tubes start cooking.................a beautiful scent indeed:)
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 23, 2012, 11:26:38 PM
Regardless of the cab issue I would still like to either get a powerful solid state power amp or some sort of monster tube head if I can swing it.
All your problems are related to your cabs so buying a huge head isn't gonna solve any of them and you'll be back here telling us your huge head still isn't cutting it. Buy some decent cabs.
Quote from: moose23 on November 24, 2012, 06:52:07 AM
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 23, 2012, 11:26:38 PM
Regardless of the cab issue I would still like to either get a powerful solid state power amp or some sort of monster tube head if I can swing it.
All your problems are related to your cabs so buying a huge head isn't gonna solve any of them and you'll be back here telling us your huge head still isn't cutting it. Buy some decent cabs.
Do you have recommendations for dimensions or wood thickness? At the moment I'm of the opinion that my Stagecraft 2x12 with 102 DB Eminence Swamp Thangs is a decent cab aside from the fact that it isn't a 4x12. I'm assuming that 102 DB speakers should be loud enough although I could look for something in the 104 or 105 range if they exist so long as they aren't $200 each.
Are slant cabs less loud than straight cabs?
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 24, 2012, 02:52:04 PM
Do you have recommendations for dimensions or wood thickness? At the moment I'm of the opinion that my Stagecraft 2x12 with 102 DB Eminence Swamp Thangs is a decent cab aside from the fact that it isn't a 4x12. I'm assuming that 102 DB speakers should be loud enough although I could look for something in the 104 or 105 range if they exist so long as they aren't $200 each.
Are slant cabs less loud than straight cabs?
Bigger the box, bassier the cab. Thickness isn't the thing, its rigidity, can achieve it with thickness, but also in other ways, like bracing, and pre tensioning. Slant cabs means you lose a bit of internal volume for the same footprint, but slightly upward facing speakers is better for being able to hear them.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 24, 2012, 02:56:52 PM
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 24, 2012, 02:52:04 PM
Do you have recommendations for dimensions or wood thickness? At the moment I'm of the opinion that my Stagecraft 2x12 with 102 DB Eminence Swamp Thangs is a decent cab aside from the fact that it isn't a 4x12. I'm assuming that 102 DB speakers should be loud enough although I could look for something in the 104 or 105 range if they exist so long as they aren't $200 each.
Are slant cabs less loud than straight cabs?
Bigger the box, bassier the cab. Thickness isn't the thing, its rigidity, can achieve it with thickness, but also in other ways, like bracing, and pre tensioning. Slant cabs means you lose a bit of internal volume for the same footprint, but slightly upward facing speakers is better for being able to hear them.
Bassier and louder or just bassier? A slant on top of a straight is nice(I'm 6'). Right now I have 2 slants which are stack-able but it's not that stable unless they are both on their sides.
Avatar's prices for loaded cabs are sick and although they don't offer a slant I could make some sort stand to put between 2 to raise up the top one to face level. Their 'Contemporary' 4x12 is 115 pounds, yikes. Their 'traditional' is not so bad at about 90 but it's 12" deep instead of 14.
I dig this as cloth grills make me nervous-
(http://www.avatarspeakers.com/pictures/g412c%20linex.jpg)
Bigger cab only adds sensitivity in the lower part. But can make it seem louder, because undersized cabs sound gutless.
Ok. I'm not buying 115 pound 4x12s but I'd put up with 90. If Avatar's 90 pound 12" deep cabs are undersized I'll look elsewhere.
from the tech thread:
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 24, 2012, 12:47:40 PM
Factors other than watts determine how loud and when it clips. If the cab is 125db when fed 10w, its going to be loud without clipping, and you just don't need to push the amp so hard. Also, you could clip a 500w rated cab with a 400w amp if the cabs excursion limit is 100w (which is often the case with 4x10s). It is the xmax of a speaker that determines when it will clip, which is unrelated to the thermal power handling. Thermal handling ratings on speaker are almost totally irrelevant but its the biggest number so it gets shouted about most.
Okay a so speakers db rating is more important than watts handling and bigger cabs are louder than small cabs and they should be well constructed preferably of real solid wood and not particle board. If there are any cab companies to stay away from please let me know. My current plan is to buy two 4x12 cabs with 102 or 103 db speakers and if I'm still not getting the volume I need I'll get a more powerful amp or take everything out to the street and burn it ;D
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 24, 2012, 06:27:21 PM
from the tech thread:
or take everything out to the street and burn it ;D
I know exactly how you feel >:(
Bass amps work great for guitar. You're probably better off with something on the Fender side though. Ampeg can get really thumpy on guitar.
funny thread :D
alot of talk aboot volume, not much aboot tone :(
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 24, 2012, 06:27:21 PM
Okay a so speakers db rating is more important than watts handling and bigger cabs are louder than small cabs and they should be well constructed preferably of real solid wood and not particle board. If there are any cab companies to stay away from please let me know. My current plan is to buy two 4x12 cabs with 102 or 103 db speakers and if I'm still not getting the volume I need I'll get a more powerful amp or take everything out to the street and burn it ;D
I think you still wanna look at the wattage rating. If you have 25 watt speakers and power it with a 100 watt head, those speakers will sound driven -- some people like that, you might not. If you have a jiggawatt head, you could blow those speakers.
Also, the sensitivity rating is a bit messy because different companies can use different methods to establish their stats. So if one company sells a speaker that's rated 1dB more efficient than another company's speaker, I would go with the speaker that seems to best match your tone search/less weight/less expensive. Because who knows if they are even on the same page.
It's a few different stats you're juggling, not a big deal.
I don't know if any guitar speakers go over 102 dB efficiency - maybe 103? If you are over 100 that's considered efficient.
IMO.
I would assume your next cab will be heavier, good speakers are usually heavy. (wheels ;)) You could try neodymium speakers, they are light and efficient but more expensive than ceramic or alnico. I've mentioned before the Lil' Texas speaker, it's light, loud and clean (but expensive). I found a used one for 70 bucks.
Watts rating isn't the bit that determines if they sound driven, its xmax (clean excursion), which on guitar speakers tends to be 0 or less than 1mm, whatever the watt rating is, because watt rating is just thermal. That is pretty much why guitar speakers have a 'tone' of their own. The 150w Swamp thangs mentioned earlier have an xmax of 0.8mm, which is going to be less that 30w before they are breaking up.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 25, 2012, 01:57:38 PM
Watts rating isn't the bit that determines if they sound driven, its xmax (clean excursion), which on guitar speakers tends to be 0 or less than 1mm, whatever the watt rating is, because watt rating is just thermal. That is pretty much why guitar speakers have a 'tone' of their own. The 150w Swamp thangs mentioned earlier have an xmax of 0.8mm, which is going to be less that 30w before they are breaking up.
Cool, I didn't know that.
That would explain why PA speakers sound clean (long xMax) and bass speakers too. D'oh!
Quote from: peyotepeddler on November 22, 2012, 11:07:26 PM
Been using a SVT for geetar since '97, works fine for me, I don't think I ever came across the book for proper amplification
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_fsFttcDFy2w/SXq94IFJRYI/AAAAAAAAAGY/EVKeXr4AvNY/image%5B24%5D.png)
I'm gonna play an electric ukulele through 2 Mesa 300 bass heads into a 6x18 cab and a Leslie.
that pittman book is kind of like one big add for groove tubes.
Yeah but it's still a nice "coffee table" book. I like this one better and wish it would go a little further with the breakdowns of the circuits.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/louderthangod/BFB39070-B27C-49C6-B717-0E11F436DE8C-4396-000002E03398A9DD.jpg)
Quote from: Chovie D on November 25, 2012, 08:32:42 PM
that pittman book is kind of like one big add for groove tubes.
Ga, I looked at that and thought 'Why the fuck is there a Groove Tubes valve on the front of that?'.
Quote from: Chovie D on November 25, 2012, 09:42:50 AM
funny thread :D
alot of talk aboot volume, not much aboot tone :(
Some. I want my rig to sound as close as possible at band practice level volume(lets say 6) as it does at 3 or 4. So I want lots of headroom and as little amp clipping and speaker breakup as possible.
I have an Acoustic 450 which is like 170watts solid state if I remember right, and i will absolutely destroy eardrums (if the speakers can hold up to the punishment) with that thing. I can actually induce pain with it, I've done it to myself.
Pain.
170 watts.
Just sayin'.
Quote from: Lumpy on November 25, 2012, 12:50:57 PM
I think you still wanna look at the wattage rating. If you have 25 watt speakers and power it with a 100 watt head, those speakers will sound driven -- some people like that, you might not. If you have a jiggawatt head, you could blow those speakers.
Also, the sensitivity rating is a bit messy because different companies can use different methods to establish their stats. So if one company sells a speaker that's rated 1dB more efficient than another company's speaker, I would go with the speaker that seems to best match your tone search/less weight/less expensive. Because who knows if they are even on the same page.
It's a few different stats you're juggling, not a big deal.
I don't know if any guitar speakers go over 102 dB efficiency - maybe 103? If you are over 100 that's considered efficient.
IMO.
I would assume your next cab will be heavier, good speakers are usually heavy. (wheels ;)) You could try neodymium speakers, they are light and efficient but more expensive than ceramic or alnico. I've mentioned before the Lil' Texas speaker, it's light, loud and clean (but expensive). I found a used one for 70 bucks.
Oh yeah big watts for sure.
Full Compass sells the Lil' Texas for $96.75. That is a very light speaker. Are those actually good for metal?
Yeah wheels are nice although they don't help for stairs. Fortunately cabs can be put on their sides so you get that on the floor low end rumble which I love.
Eminence rates their Wizard at 103 db and their Swamp Thang(which I have in my 2x12) at 102 although they are 75 vs 150 watts.
Regarding volume, is a 110-120+ lb Emperor 4x12 going to be significantly louder than say a 90 lb Avatar(12" deep) assuming that they both have the same speakers?
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 25, 2012, 01:57:38 PM
Watts rating isn't the bit that determines if they sound driven, its xmax (clean excursion), which on guitar speakers tends to be 0 or less than 1mm, whatever the watt rating is, because watt rating is just thermal. That is pretty much why guitar speakers have a 'tone' of their own. The 150w Swamp thangs mentioned earlier have an xmax of 0.8mm, which is going to be less that 30w before they are breaking up.
Help me understand this. Are you saying that Swamp Thangs break up fairly fast? The Eminence guy I emailed said that model is known to be clean and hard to break up.
Quote from: mutantcolors on November 26, 2012, 12:52:15 AM
I have an Acoustic 450 which is like 170watts solid state if I remember right, and i will absolutely destroy eardrums (if the speakers can hold up to the punishment) with that thing. I can actually induce pain with it, I've done it to myself.
Pain.
170 watts.
Just sayin'.
Guitar? Bass? What cabs/speakers do you play it through?
a single 120 watt 4x12 cab for guitar so I couldn't even blast it w/o fear of decimating the cones
Do you know the make/model of the cab and speakers?
Hit me with 4x12 cab suggestions dudes. And cabs to stay away from. Dimensions, construction, and types/thicknesses of wood too if you want. Whatever I get will probably be ordered sight unseen and sound unheard directly from the company that makes it.
If some cheap easy to find used at Guitar Center Crate or whatever cab is loud as fuck with the right speakers I'd love to save some money but I'm assuming I'll have to spend at least $800-1,000 for a quality pair of loaded 4x12s.
Right now the best bang for the buck on a heavy duty 4x12 seems to be the Avatar 'Contemporary' model loaded for $599 + $68 shipping but they do weigh 115 lbs. Yowza. 2 of them would still be a shitload of money.
edit: read that some older Peavey cabs weren't bad and were loaded with G12K85s although that is only a 99 dB speaker.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 26, 2012, 02:17:01 AM
Hit me with 4x12 cab suggestions dudes. And cabs to stay away from. Dimensions, construction, and types/thicknesses of wood too if you want. Whatever I get will probably be ordered sight unseen and sound unheard directly from the company that makes it.
If some cheap easy to find used at Guitar Center Crate or whatever cab is loud as fuck with the right speakers I'd love to save some money but I'm assuming I'll have to spend at least $800-1,000 for a quality pair of loaded 4x12s.
Right now the best bang for the buck on a heavy duty 4x12 seems to be the Avatar 'Contemporary' model loaded for $599 + $68 shipping but they do weigh 115 lbs. Yowza. 2 of them would still be a shitload of money.
edit: read that some older Peavey cabs weren't bad and were loaded with G12K85s although that is only a 99 dB speaker.
You should check out the Old Fender Roc Pro cabs, they were light weight but had metal grill covers and they did not fart out at all on the low and were pretty damn loud. I ran one with a Peavey VTX tube head tuned down to B using a Bazz Fuss and it would shake the whole room and was very tight sounding.
Dunno what turns up over there, but here, the Hayden 240w cabs are the bargain ones, MDF, which isn't ideal, acoustically dead but heavy (explodes when you drop it it the main problem), loaded with Chinese made Vintage 30s, need wearing in as they are harsh new (and being cheapies, hardly ever have been pushed even when second hand). Marshall mode 4 240w ones are good, also V30 loaded, decent ply, big, not the MF400 though, dark low sensitivity speakers.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 26, 2012, 01:42:04 AM
Do you know the make/model of the cab and speakers?
It's this with g12 h30s. This photo cracks me up because it reminds me the numbnuts on ebay shipped it to my college apartment instead of my home where the big toys reside.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img571/4646/photo437.jpg)
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 26, 2012, 10:53:12 AM
Dunno what turns up over there, but here, the Hayden 240w cabs are the bargain ones, MDF, which isn't ideal, acoustically dead but heavy (explodes when you drop it it the main problem), loaded with Chinese made Vintage 30s, need wearing in as they are harsh new (and being cheapies, hardly ever have been pushed even when second hand). Marshall mode 4 240w ones are good, also V30 loaded, decent ply, big, not the MF400 though, dark low sensitivity speakers.
So these are loud and worth buying when cheap?
I've heard good things about the Mesa Boogie straight cab (somebody already suggested M B to you in this thread). I'm not sure which speakers come with it -- maybe the EVM-L speakers which are heavy and relatively uncolored, and rated at 100 watts each (I think). Possibly Black Shadow speakers. I think you want an older MB straight cab. They're on Craigs List sometimes for 500 bucks.
Emperor cabs come with Jensen Jets sometimes, some of those are loud but maybe not clean. I dunno. Electric Lightning is a loud but aggressive sounding Jensen speaker. Maybe not clean enough.
I would look on Craigs List, see what's available, find out what speakers are loaded in there, and work from there.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 26, 2012, 01:40:13 PM
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 26, 2012, 10:53:12 AM
Dunno what turns up over there, but here, the Hayden 240w cabs are the bargain ones, MDF, which isn't ideal, acoustically dead but heavy (explodes when you drop it it the main problem), loaded with Chinese made Vintage 30s, need wearing in as they are harsh new (and being cheapies, hardly ever have been pushed even when second hand). Marshall mode 4 240w ones are good, also V30 loaded, decent ply, big, not the MF400 though, dark low sensitivity speakers.
So these are loud and worth buying when cheap?
A V30 loaded 4x12 is going to be loud. The Haydens come up for around £100 sometimes, I grab them to put the speakers into vintage cabs.
I've never heard of Hayden cabs, so they are possibly a UK thing.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 26, 2012, 12:11:13 AM
Quote from: Chovie D on November 25, 2012, 09:42:50 AM
funny thread :D
alot of talk aboot volume, not much aboot tone :(
Some. I want my rig to sound as close as possible at band practice level volume(lets say 6) as it does at 3 or 4. So I want lots of headroom and as little amp clipping and speaker breakup as possible.
To me, the best sound is an amp breaking up.
The next best is an amp on the verge of breaking up with a pedal in front of it.
This is the sound that is most practical (for me) for live playing.
That puts me in the 40-50 watt area of comfort. I find this more than loud enough for any drummer, plus my amp is always miced.
...this is thru a 4x12.
so, my big mufff or rat sounds great in front of my 120m watt sunn, but its sounds amazing in front of my 40 watt guild or 50 watt basssman. just searing, ...I can control it by backing off a little or go ape at full throttle. If you have clean headroom you can never really get into that "his amp is melting!!!" end of sonic territory..and for me thats where the angels trumpets are.
IN short, clean headroom on guitar is something I dont want.
diffrent strokes for difernt folks tho. I f I wanted a poweful amp with tons of clean headroom , yes, I d look into amps with ultralinear transformers Bassman 130, super twin, old sunns. To me tho, that tone is ice picky and peircing.
On pedal steel, its the opposite for me,. I need amps with tons of clean headroom
I guess this discussion has moved onto cabs tho.
Quote from: Lumpy on November 26, 2012, 02:31:08 PM
I've never heard of Hayden cabs, so they are possibly a UK thing.
Yeah, they are the guitar branch of Ashdown. The cheap ones are made in China, so should be as available there if they have distribution.
Quote from: Chovie D on November 26, 2012, 02:40:15 PM
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 26, 2012, 12:11:13 AM
Quote from: Chovie D on November 25, 2012, 09:42:50 AM
funny thread :D
alot of talk aboot volume, not much aboot tone :(
Some. I want my rig to sound as close as possible at band practice level volume(lets say 6) as it does at 3 or 4. So I want lots of headroom and as little amp clipping and speaker breakup as possible.
To me, the best sound is an amp breaking up.
The next best is an amp on the verge of breaking up with a pedal in front of it.
This is the sound that is most practical (for me) for live playing.
That puts me in the 40-50 watt area of comfort. I find this more than loud enough for any drummer, plus my amp is always miced.
...this is thru a 4x12.
so, my big mufff or rat sounds great in front of my 120m watt sunn, but its sounds amazing in front of my 40 watt guild or 50 watt basssman. just searing, ...I can control it by backing off a little or go ape at full throttle. If you have clean headroom you can never really get into that "his amp is melting!!!" end of sonic territory..and for me thats where the angels trumpets are.
IN short, clean headroom on guitar is something I dont want.
diffrent strokes for difernt folks tho. I f I wanted a poweful amp with tons of clean headroom , yes, I d look into amps with ultralinear transformers Bassman 130, super twin, old sunns. To me tho, that tone is ice picky and peircing.
On pedal steel, its the opposite for me,. I need amps with tons of clean headroom
I guess this discussion has moved onto cabs tho.
I hear you and for a more heavy rock, stoner, or sludge type sound I'd want the kind of breakup that my 50 watt Laney is great at producing. Right now I've got a distortion pedal I really like. I like the way it sounds at low to medium volumes through just about any amp. High volume breakup from either tube or solid state amps changes the tone in a way I don't like. I need lots of clean headroom. Think classic/power/thrash/whatever metal at extreme metal gain levels but darker, something like that. No ice picky tones, somewhat mid-scooped. Gotta keep the treble under control and preamp treble knobs tend to be good at that. I'll read more about Fenders but for $300 I can get a super powerful rack mount solid state power amp that should do the trick with the right cabs so long as the speakers don't melt. I could run my Ampeg into it or buy an older rack pre for cheap. The 300 watt tube amp thing is not going to be possible if I have to spend more than a few hundred on new cabs. I suspect that the right straight 4x12 with the right speakers might pair up well with my 2x12.
I can just slave that same 412 out from my 60 watt combo for a 3/4 stack and the volume difference is substantial, like WAY louder.
Getting a good loud straight 4x12 will be my next purchase.
Sadly there is something wrong with my Ampeg because it used to be louder but I don't think I'm going to spend any more money getting it looked at. Techs at two different places said they couldn't find anything wrong.
Found a Crate BV300 head not that far from me for only $450, might have to get it tomorrow, just because.
;D
Just in case you are serious:
Don't.
It would make a really heavy power amp to lug around if nothing else.
No.
He's obviously too far gone for help.
Let him have at it. Some people need to learn the hard way.
Don't do it.
solid state ???
baby jesus is crying :'(
Nah, the BV300h is a fucking beast of a head. 6 6550s, 10 preamp tubes for three channels? I'm sure it could be modded to complete usefulness, it has iron to handle 6 6550s, three moddable channels... at 450$, he may be onto something, or... he may just sound bad loud.
If one came up close and cheap? I'd buy one. You're thinking of the Shockwave, Choves.
... and for real, they only made a few of these. Less than a hundred, from my research.
Quote from: SunnO))) on November 27, 2012, 09:52:04 AM
Nah, the BV300h is a fucking beast of a head. 6 6550s, 10 preamp tubes for three channels? I'm sure it could be modded to complete usefulness, it has iron to handle 6 6550s, three moddable channels... at 450$, he may be onto something, or... he may just sound bad loud.
If one came up close and cheap? I'd buy one. You're thinking of the Shockwave, Choves.
... and for real, they only made a few of these. Less than a hundred, from my research.
yeah, I want to say those were built with someone specific in mind? megadeth, maybe?
They definitely sound like Megadeth.
As a firm believer in things like evolution, adaptation, survival of the fittest, and such; I have to imagine that if things like 100+ to 300 watt guitar tube amps actually were a useful tool then there would be many, many more in the marketplace in which to choose from. But there is a reason that the trend in amplification is less and less watts. Even sparce and inexpensive PA systems these days do a great job compared to past decades. When's the last time you went to a show at even a shitty dive bar and thought "Gee, that metal band wasn't nearly loud enough"...? Me neither.
There are exceptions to this theory though. I know some people can coax a good (and manageable) tone out of things like Model Ts and Marshall Majors. But a BV300 sure as shit ain't one of those.
PS - And it's not that I don't love a great, loud-as-balls rock show. You bet your ass I do.
Yeah, those BVH's were made for Marty Friedman and I think Pat from Cannibal Corpse used them.
Quote from: Jake on November 27, 2012, 10:33:10 AM
As a firm believer in things like evolution, adaptation, survival of the fittest, and such; I have to imagine that if things like 100+ to 300 watt guitar tube amps actually were a useful tool then there would be many, many more in the marketplace in which to choose from. But there is a reason that the trend in amplification is less and less watts. Even sparce and inexpensive PA systems these days do a great job compared to past decades. When's the last time you went to a show at even a shitty dive bar and thought "Gee, that metal band wasn't nearly loud enough"...? Me neither.
There are exceptions to this theory though. I know some people can coax a good (and manageable) tone out of things like Model Ts and Marshall Majors. But a BV300 sure as shit ain't one of those.
PS - And it's not that I don't love a great, loud-as-balls rock show. You bet your ass I do.
Problem with that is the sounds people are after change. Like the advent of the White Stripes making utterly shit guitars suddenly very expensive. Plus massive amps are expensive.
Quote from: Jake on November 27, 2012, 10:33:10 AM
But there is a reason that the trend in amplification is less and less watts.
The reason is that more and more guitar players are getting into tube amp breakup and want it at lower volume levels. I already know that doesn't work for me with this band.
I have the type of distortion pedal that would probably sound good into a home stereo system or straight in a PA. All I need is more headroom than I currently have. I have not abandoned the 4x12 idea.
I'd probably snag a Sunn Model T in a second for $450 by the way.
The good thing about Guitar Center is their return policy.
Quote from: RacerX on November 27, 2012, 08:55:45 AM
He's obviously too far gone for help.
Let him have at it. Some people need to learn the hard way.
I'm all eyes here. You folks did educate me on the importance of speaker efficiency.
I've learned many things the hard way in life and have found the lessons to be far less bitter when the don't cost very much. Owning a 300 watt tube amp for guitar is probably a bit like riding a V8 motorcycle and sometimes ya just gotta be that guy.
80 lbs is a lot for an amp although so is 100+ for a cab.
Quote from: Chovie D on November 27, 2012, 09:19:10 AM
solid state ???
baby jesus is crying :'(
He's been crying for awhile because I've been using a solid state amp for most of the year.
For $450, from experience I would look for a Ampeg V4
Pretty sure a V4 at $450 is cming with an equal maintenance bill.
I've played geetar through a Fender Bassman, a more modern one (1980s?) that ran 300 watts out 6 6550s and yeah, it was bad ass. I also had to use a preamp to make it sound like guitar, and I had the controls at about 5 on the power amp and 3 on the preamp and it was fucking ridiculous. Hey actually I have video of it. I think it was a Line 6 4x12 with...obviously a lot of power handling.
^ Very different than my tone but it does sound good.
Quote from: eddiefive10 on November 27, 2012, 12:32:15 PM
For $450, from experience I would look for a Ampeg V4
A quick check on ebay reveals that they seem to go for between $300 and $600 or so but there are different eras. Otherwise I know little about them aside from that some are said to be about 80 lbs which seems odd for a 100 watt amp.
Monster iron and tone.
^ box kitty rules
The reason that smaller amps are popular is that people are just getting fucking lamer. There are a million threads on the gear page about guys looking for super quiet amps that won't disturb their precious neighbors or their sensitive soundmen at the weekly blues jamboree. Aside from a studio, you just can't recreate the sound of a great, large, cranked amp with any small amp because part of what we love so much is that volume. A 1-watt amp with all the power tube distortion in the world won't thump your chest and it won't give you the dynamics of a pushed speaker. Even places with great PA's never sound as good as the standing right in front of the amp...at least not yet.
^ :D
um....no.
Quote from: clockwork green on November 27, 2012, 04:02:09 PM
...because part of what we love so much is that volume...
Well I disagree with just about everything you said, but
especially that nugget. Unless by "we" you mean you and Spook.
I leave my Model T at 10... and my 5-watt blackheart at 10... :-\ :-\
This is my front room:
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/Incarante/DSCF1389.jpg)
Trick is not being a cunt to your neighbours, and talking to them and such, that way, they won't use you being loud sometimes to be cunts to you.
**Anecdotal Evidence Alert**
I've seen thousands of bands and at this point, the best guitar tones for me come from largish combos and/or 50W heads into one 4x12. Rare is the full stack emitting sweet aural honey in a normal room (most clubs). Also, every band I've ever been in sounded way better in the jam room when dudes (and me where applicable ) had to use one cab instead of two...
/Mileage May Vary, taste is subjective, lots o' variables w/ rooms, soundguys, FX, etc
Scale matters, the same tone at a lesser volume just doesn't sound as good. If you want you use the retarded masses as an example then so will I...why are home theater systems so much more common now? Wouldn't hi-fi speakers at 90dB's be just as good as those at 105dB's? Of course they're not. Maybe you guys got some shitty ass tone with your amp on 10 because it certainly takes some work getting a rig to handle high volume without falling apart. Hell, the most painful live tone I've ever heard was a cranked 25-watt solid state amp because it produced nothing but piercing, harshness but some of the best was not just quality tone but loud in a warm, chest thumping way. It's a shame that Matt Pike 3-4 Matamp stacks rig never lasted long but that tone was blissfull...never harsh or strident like he is now. We take in music with more than our ears and scaling it down just won't have the same effect on the listener. There is also the big iron effect. 50-watt Marshall's never sound as good to me as 100-watt Marshall's just like power tube and phase inverter distortion sound better to me than preamp distortion. EL34's and 6L6's also sound better to me than the overly chimey EL84 and the muddy low end of the 6V6 so that's another issue I have with smaller amps.
I'll say it again: YOU NEED LOUDER SPEAKERS. Not a bigger amp. Not more cabs. Louder speakers!
If you like the tone of your Swamp Thangs, take the cheap speakers out of your 4x12 and replace them with more Swamp Thangs. Your cab will sound between 2 and 8 times louder, depending on how crappy the stock speakers are.
I'm surprised that his Matamp wasn't loud enough, because the few bands I've seen using Matamps were louder than fuck, and the amps can do super-clean at high volume (in my limited experience).
This could just be a case of loudness wars. Like maybe the other dudes in his band are too loud, so he has to be even louder to be heard over them.
Quote from: clockwork green on November 27, 2012, 07:11:20 PM
Scale matters, the same tone at a lesser volume just doesn't sound as good. If you want you use the retarded masses as an example then so will I...why are home theater systems so much more common now? Wouldn't hi-fi speakers at 90dB's be just as good as those at 105dB's? Of course they're not. Maybe you guys got some shitty ass tone with your amp on 10 because it certainly takes some work getting a rig to handle high volume without falling apart. Hell, the most painful live tone I've ever heard was a cranked 25-watt solid state amp because it produced nothing but piercing, harshness but some of the best was not just quality tone but loud in a warm, chest thumping way. It's a shame that Matt Pike 3-4 Matamp stacks rig never lasted long but that tone was blissfull...never harsh or strident like he is now. We take in music with more than our ears and scaling it down just won't have the same effect on the listener.
The stuff not sounding the same at different volumes is because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves
Quote from: clockwork green on November 27, 2012, 04:02:09 PM
The reason that smaller amps are popular is that people are just getting fucking lamer. There are a million threads on the gear page about guys looking for super quiet amps that won't disturb their precious neighbors or their sensitive soundmen at the weekly blues jamboree. Aside from a studio, you just can't recreate the sound of a great, large, cranked amp with any small amp because part of what we love so much is that volume. A 1-watt amp with all the power tube distortion in the world won't thump your chest and it won't give you the dynamics of a pushed speaker. Even places with great PA's never sound as good as the standing right in front of the amp...at least not yet.
Exactly, if your chest is not pumping and your pant legs vibrating and your hands are not tingling then you are not playing loud enough :-)
Look what you people have reduced me to...I almost agree with Spook on something. I'm banning myself.
You made that bed. Time to gt cozy.
No one is disputing that a one watt amp is going to sound as rich and full as something that is 30-100 watts.
But you all are insane if you think something like a dimed blackface Bassman (or even a tweed Bassman) is not gonna be loud enough to get a good, chest-thumping, speaker-pushing sound. What are those, like 40-60 watts?
Quote from: Jake on November 27, 2012, 09:10:50 PM
You made that bed. Time to gt cozy.
No one is disputing that a one watt amp is going to sound as rich and full as something that is 30-100 watts.
But you all are insane if you think something like a dimed blackface Bassman (or even a tweed Bassman) is not gonna be loud enough to get a good, chest-thumping, speaker-pushing sound. What are those, like 40-60 watts?
I friend of mine plays guitar through a silverface Bassman, and a matching old Fender 2x12 (who knows what speakers). It's not loud enough. It sounds like poo (muffled).
Folks need a good speaker cabinet, that's a big part of the equation. Vintage heads are cool, but vintage speaker cabs less cool, because those speakers are sometimes beat up. Plus, I think there have been improvements in speaker technology since the 60s. Old head + newer speakers/cab = hella groovy.
I meant through a 4x12. And I don't think that the Silverfaces sound good either.
Shit, I have 100 watts available between both sides of my power amp. One side runs into an old 4x12 SUNN cab and the other into an Avatar 2x12 loaded with 30 watt Hellatones. That's 6 12s, which move a respectable amount of air. That lets me use the low power setting on the power amp, which knocks the output down from 50 to 15 watts per side. Volume controls both set at about 3 o'clock where the power tube distortion is in effect, and that's PLENTY loud enough. Sometimes for bigger rooms, I might edge the volumes up to 4 o'clock.
If I turned my rig up all the way on the high power setting in a club, it would ridiculously and unbearably loud. Maybe if I play an arena gig. ::)
Quote from: clockwork green on November 27, 2012, 08:50:16 PM
Look what you people have reduced me to...I almost agree with Spook on something. I'm banning myself.
I bet we agree on more things than you think.
Cheers :)
;D
I'll let you guys know how the beast sounds if I buy it tomorrow.
Regarding cabs, thinking that a loud horizontal 2x12 would be good to try under my diagonal slant 2x12 if I could find one used for cheap. I have not abandoned the 4x12 idea either though.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 28, 2012, 01:45:25 AM
I'll let you guys know how the beast sounds if I buy it tomorrow.
Regarding cabs, thinking that a loud horizontal 2x12 would be good to try under my diagonal slant 2x12 if I could find one used for cheap. I have not abandoned the 4x12 idea either though.
More vertical and narrow your speaker column is, the better you'll be able to hear it, because the dispersion is better off to the sides and ceiling/floor reflections are minimised. So vertical 2x12 is better, as long as you like the sound coming out of them, because you;ll be able to hear the sound. A lot of people fucking hate their sound though, and generally in those cases, I agree.
Quote from: Lumpy on November 27, 2012, 10:13:02 PM
Quote from: Jake on November 27, 2012, 09:10:50 PM
You made that bed. Time to gt cozy.
No one is disputing that a one watt amp is going to sound as rich and full as something that is 30-100 watts.
But you all are insane if you think something like a dimed blackface Bassman (or even a tweed Bassman) is not gonna be loud enough to get a good, chest-thumping, speaker-pushing sound. What are those, like 40-60 watts?
I friend of mine plays guitar through a silverface Bassman, and a matching old Fender 2x12 (who knows what speakers). It's not loud enough. It sounds like poo (muffled).
Folks need a good speaker cabinet, that's a big part of the equation. Vintage heads are cool, but vintage speaker cabs less cool, because those speakers are sometimes beat up. Plus, I think there have been improvements in speaker technology since the 60s. Old head + newer speakers/cab = hella groovy.
fender cabs and speakers are notoriously shitty . with the exception of their JBL loaded stuff .
fenders that need servicing can operate at reduced volumes too tho.
In general i agree with what you said (exception for small combos that require the vintage speakers or those jbl loaded fenders). I run all my heads thru modern speaker cabs , nothing special, avatars, but all with newer V30's and GH12whatevers. The 4x12 sounds better to me than the 2x12 FWIW.
Your friend should try a few other cabs with his head and see what happens ;)
btw our bass player used a fifty watt silverface bassman for the entire existence of our band. I used a 40 watt head for guitar. we were reasonably loud, no complaints.
IN my breif tenure with the bronze i used a 120 watt sunn into two borrowed 4 x12's, becuase the other guys had similar rigs. It was stupid.
In fairness, guitarist in Sonance found his Orange Dual Terror to not be loud enough even with two 4x12s. Other guitarist using a 450w SS head and bassist using an SVT into a 4x15 and a Matamp GTV into a 4x12 might be main reason though.
Although that Crate is probably a steal at $450 I decided against even driving the 70 miles to check it out. I just don't want an 80lb head. I don't really want a 4x12 either, my 2x12(size of a smaller 4x12) is only 65 pounds but I don't enjoy lugging that around even. If I can get another 2x12 of some sort(with LOUD speakers of course) and have enough volume I'll be adding vertical height to hear myself better and save my shoulders and back some grief. Regardless of that I'll probably get a class D solid state rack power amp and some type of rack pre so I don't have to lug my Ampeg around. As I previously stated something is wrong with the Ampeg and I don't know if I trust it all that well for gigs. I am curious about Fender guitar tube heads(there is an "original condition" but "working" '72 Bassman 100 on the local Craiglist for $475) though as I suspect running one clean with my pedal might sound similar to a SS amp in that I'd have lots of clean headroom, possibly even enough clean headroom... but why fuck with a 40 year old tube head when I don't have to?
I'll try to forget about amps until I get another good, loud cab but it won't be easy while my bandmates can't hear me very well at practice.
Have you any rough recordings of what you sound like so we can hear what's happening?
Quote from: moose23 on November 28, 2012, 02:23:18 PM
Have you any rough recordings of what you sound like so we can hear what's happening?
Not much to hear really, just my Ampeg clipping I guess.
I can put a short clip of my tone on Soundcloud just for the hell of it this weekend if I make the time.
Do, be cool to get an idea of what your band sounds like too.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 28, 2012, 12:31:49 PM
Although that Crate is probably a steal at $450 I decided against even driving the 70 miles to check it out. I just don't want an 80lb head. I don't really want a 4x12 either, my 2x12(size of a smaller 4x12) is only 65 pounds but I don't enjoy lugging that around even. If I can get another 2x12 of some sort(with LOUD speakers of course) and have enough volume I'll be adding vertical height to hear myself better and save my shoulders and back some grief. Regardless of that I'll probably get a class D solid state rack power amp and some type of rack pre so I don't have to lug my Ampeg around. As I previously stated something is wrong with the Ampeg and I don't know if I trust it all that well for gigs. I am curious about Fender guitar tube heads(there is an "original condition" but "working" '72 Bassman 100 on the local Craiglist for $475) though as I suspect running one clean with my pedal might sound similar to a SS amp in that I'd have lots of clean headroom, possibly even enough clean headroom... but why fuck with a 40 year old tube head when I don't have to?
I'll try to forget about amps until I get another good, loud cab but it won't be easy while my bandmates can't hear me very well at practice.
I have a 100 watt 1968 fender showman. If I crank it all the way up, it does breakup into a really nice Stonesy Grind. Thats hard to acheive because oits so damn loud. I start to hear a little hair about midway up, but I dont really ever turn it past 3 and have the entire volume output reduced by the space echo.
If you want pretty much endless clean headroom I think you should look into the ultralinear fenders like the bassman 135.
Honestly tho, the tiny bit of harmonic distortion you get from a regular fender 50 or 100 watt is gloriously beautiful, I cannot understand why any guitar player would not want that option. ???
why would you want to fuck around with a 40 year old tube amp? because they sound fantastic and they are built to last . They are still here 40 years later, while your 3 year old crate heads to the landfill, all that chinese pcb shit will be in the landfill while these amps go on for 100 years more.
Quote from: Chovie D on November 29, 2012, 11:55:51 AM
I have a 100 watt 1968 fender showman. If I crank it all the way up, it does breakup into a really nice Stonesy Grind. Thats hard to acheive because oits so damn loud. I start to hear a little hair about midway up, but I dont really ever turn it past 3 and have the entire volume output reduced by the space echo.
If you want pretty much endless clean headroom I think you should look into the ultralinear fenders like the bassman 135.
Honestly tho, the tiny bit of harmonic distortion you get from a regular fender 50 or 100 watt is gloriously beautiful, I cannot understand why any guitar player would not want that option. ???
why would you want to fuck around with a 40 year old tube amp? because they sound fantastic and they are built to last . They are still here 40 years later, while your 3 year old crate heads to the landfill, all that chinese pcb shit will be in the landfill while these amps go on for 100 years more.
How much do the Bassman 135 heads go for?
I didn't get that Crate.
I don't need extra distortion of any kind with my distortion pedal as it's kind of like a modeling unit aside from that I do like to run it through a preamp so I can tweak the tone a little bit. I could probably get a great sound with it using PA equipment.
What is this pedal from which you generate all of your tone from?
(http://www.wongsmusic.com/image/cache/data/Pic%20n%20Spec/Amptweaker/tight_metal-500x500.jpg)
Bassman 135 is usually under $500. They weigh a ton.
Theres also the fender PA135 which is a four channel PA head. THose are the same deal under $500,
135 watts from an unltralinear output section..but none of the four channels are voiced for guitar. Some people mod each channel , one channel becomes a bassman, another a twin, and so on.
Keep in mind, Im an old fart and dont understand you kids and your modern nu-metal sounds :P
Quote from: Chovie D on November 29, 2012, 11:55:51 AM
If you want pretty much endless clean headroom I think you should look into the ultralinear fenders like the bassman 135.
A Fender Twin Reverb (a 2x12 combo) would be insanely loud, and it stays clean basically all the way up. They're about 700 bucks used. You cannot stay in the same room as this amp, when it's cranked. It's painful.
Now that I think of it, a Roland JC120 is also insanely loud and clean. About 500 bucks used. Probably not as loud as the Fender though.
If those amps aren't loud enough, I wonder if anybody can hear your drummer. That's how you should be setting your volume (to match up with your drummer). In which case the other guys in your band need to turn down.
All of this talk has me thinking how can I come up with $1500 for a Verellen Meatsmoke while they're on sale. I figure if it doesn't work for guitar, then I'd still have a sweet bass amp.
Quote from: Lumpy on November 29, 2012, 03:32:33 PM
A Fender Twin Reverb (a 2x12 combo) would be insanely loud, and it stays clean basically all the way up. They're about 700 bucks used. You cannot stay in the same room as this amp, when it's cranked. It's painful.
I'm a big Twin fan. If you're patient you can score one cheap - my ultralinear Twin was $350, but it's speakers are bad enough that it's not nearly as loud as my non-UL. Projects...
Rivera appears to still have new old stock TBR-5's: http://rivera.shptron.com/p/tbr-5-hammer-320-new-old-stock?pp=8&pp=8
320 watts mono, 160 stereo, various lower power options. 8 6550's.
The regular fender twin will break up a bit when cranked all the way. Much like my showman....This is difficult to discover because its dificult to withstand that level of volume long enough to try this out.
The ultralinear twins (i am guessing) will not break up even when cranked all the way.
looking at that pedal and reading the thread, Im thinking maybe the sound this guy is after ...is something I know nothing about.
Legend has it that there was a guitar version of the SVT with reverb and trem. SLM made a guitar amp with the power amp from the SVT Classic.
Quote from: FullCustom on November 29, 2012, 10:10:29 PM
Legend has it that there was a guitar version of the SVT with reverb and trem. SLM made a guitar amp with the power amp from the SVT Classic.
Ampeg V9
Maybe he should try playing through an SVT and 8x10 fridge. Why not.
Quote from: Chovie D on November 29, 2012, 01:46:37 PM
Keep in mind, Im an old fart and dont understand you kids and your modern nu-metal sounds :P
Wrong word gramps. :D
And I'm not exactly a spring chicken anymore.
Quote from: Chovie D on November 29, 2012, 06:22:57 PM
looking at that pedal and reading the thread, Im thinking maybe the sound this guy is after ...is something I know nothing about.
I've got the sound, just want a bit more volume. To me it sounds like a high gain amp's preamp but better. It's all set, doesn't need to go through a cranked and breaking up tube amp to sound good. I'll record a clip tomorrow and post it.
Quote from: Lumpy on November 29, 2012, 03:32:33 PM
If those amps aren't loud enough, I wonder if anybody can hear your drummer. That's how you should be setting your volume (to match up with your drummer). In which case the other guys in your band need to turn down.
Our drummer is very loud and we all wear earplugs, generally the good ones like Hearos and what not. I don't think my rig is any louder than his cymbals or snare.
Quote from: SunnO))) on November 29, 2012, 10:17:21 PM
Quote from: FullCustom on November 29, 2012, 10:10:29 PM
Legend has it that there was a guitar version of the SVT with reverb and trem. SLM made a guitar amp with the power amp from the SVT Classic.
Ampeg V9
Fuckin' cool. Too heavy to lug around though.
Quote from: Lumpy on November 29, 2012, 10:35:37 PM
Maybe he should try playing through an SVT and 8x10 fridge. Why not.
Will you be my personal roadie? :D
I know people love their Ampeg fridges and I know some people are super strong.. I am not. I need gear I can lift up and down stairs by myself if I need to. I should lift weights, just like I should sleep 8 hours a night, read the paper everyday, and do volunteer work.
Crazy that Bassman 135s are going for over $500 now. I sold my Bassman 135 and dual showman for $650 a few years back & kinda wish I wouldn't have. Those heads are f'ing rad. I've never had an amp that took to pedals better than that one and I've never had an amp with cooler sounding tube break up right up until the fart tone was let loose and then it sucked. I'm sure it'd be sick for guitar and it's definitely sick for bass if you don't play super loud. I just had to play super loud and it didn't work at the time. I'd figure it'd be nothing short of awesome in the studio.
If anyone is curious here are a couple examples of the types of riffs I tend to play with my current band. The amp volume was half way to practice level and the tone is set about how I've had it since getting the TightMetal. Tried adding more mids yesterday at practice and it cut through better however the sound was more high gain heavy metal 101.
[soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/mercianband/12-1-12-riffs-tone-demo[/soundcloud]
Just as a sidebar - I'm shocked with the emphasis that is put on amp weight these days (yano, like the literal version of heavy). I realize we're all old or getting close to it, probably none of us work out, and definitely Ll of us are lazy...but c'mon. If you need volume, you're in a band. If you're in a band, you have band mates. And even if they're just as weak and skinny as us, two of you equal at least one normal able bodied person able to carry 50-75 lbs about 50 feet or so.
Not to mention, I think the majority of people on here fancy a vintage make to their amplifiers - amplifiers from a time where they were built heavy with very little exception. Looking for that tone while being easy on the back sorta sounds like asking for a Big Mac but insisting it has to be under 90 calories.
Anyway...back to the 8000 watts, or whatever.
I've got no problems lugging heavy gear; I've always done so. The key to moving the heavy stuff is teamwork and lifting properly. You don't have to be a fucking gorilla...
I have a bad back so i cant carry or lift anything. When I leave my home with my gear, its juts me, no bandmates. Therefor I will not buy a heavy combo amp like a twin.
Head weight isnt as critical to me, I can lift most of them myself.
its hard to tell from that soundclip whats going on because it could just be the way you recorded it...i dont hear any high end tho, its kinda muffled.
Quote from: clockwork green on November 27, 2012, 07:11:20 PM
Scale matters, the same tone at a lesser volume just doesn't sound as good. If you want you use the retarded masses as an example then so will I...why are home theater systems so much more common now? Wouldn't hi-fi speakers at 90dB's be just as good as those at 105dB's? Of course they're not. Maybe you guys got some shitty ass tone with your amp on 10 because it certainly takes some work getting a rig to handle high volume without falling apart. Hell, the most painful live tone I've ever heard was a cranked 25-watt solid state amp because it produced nothing but piercing, harshness but some of the best was not just quality tone but loud in a warm, chest thumping way. It's a shame that Matt Pike 3-4 Matamp stacks rig never lasted long but that tone was blissfull...never harsh or strident like he is now. We take in music with more than our ears and scaling it down just won't have the same effect on the listener. There is also the big iron effect. 50-watt Marshall's never sound as good to me as 100-watt Marshall's just like power tube and phase inverter distortion sound better to me than preamp distortion. EL34's and 6L6's also sound better to me than the overly chimey EL84 and the muddy low end of the 6V6 so that's another issue I have with smaller amps.
I also don't subscribe to the masses theory, unless you want to paint sleepy cottages tucked at the feet of mountains with a hazy fog clouding your vision:)
Quote from: morgantician on December 05, 2012, 09:19:03 AM
Just as a sidebar - I'm shocked with the emphasis that is put on amp weight these days (yano, like the literal version of heavy). I realize we're all old or getting close to it, probably none of us work out, and definitely Ll of us are lazy...but c'mon. If you need volume, you're in a band. If you're in a band, you have band mates. And even if they're just as weak and skinny as us, two of you equal at least one normal able bodied person able to carry 50-75 lbs about 50 feet or so.
Not to mention, I think the majority of people on here fancy a vintage make to their amplifiers - amplifiers from a time where they were built heavy with very little exception. Looking for that tone while being easy on the back sorta sounds like asking for a Big Mac but insisting it has to be under 90 calories.
Anyway...back to the 8000 watts, or whatever.
Band mates sometimes aren't around though. I can lift pretty heavy objects however I don't enjoy being sore for 3 days afterwards. It's been years since I had to lift/drag/push super heavy stuff in my warehouse jobs. So glad that is over. No 80 lb head for me. I can lift one no problem, just have no desire to.
Quote from: Chovie D on December 05, 2012, 12:56:21 PM
its hard to tell from that soundclip whats going on because it could just be the way you recorded it...i dont hear any high end tho, its kinda muffled.
Part of that is the way the mic picked it up but yes it's very dark tone. I'm probably trying too hard to replicate my favorite guitar tones from albums. Finally realizing that tone like that doesn't cut well with the band.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on December 05, 2012, 01:21:57 PM
Part of that is the way the mic picked it up but yes it's very dark tone. I'm probably trying too hard to replicate my favorite guitar tones from albums. Finally realizing that tone like that doesn't cut well with the band.
Important thing to do while doing that is find an isolated guitar track. Djent was invented by trying to sound like a bass and a snare drum at the same time.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on December 05, 2012, 01:21:57 PM
Part of that is the way the mic picked it up but yes it's very dark tone. I'm probably trying too hard to replicate my favorite guitar tones from albums. Finally realizing that tone like that doesn't cut well with the band.
That wasn't what I expected to hear, at all. That's not clean by any stretch of the imagination. I thought you said your tone was clean, and the problem was just not enough loudness.
This might sound dumb but copying other peoples' formulas isn't a bad way to go. Figure out who is getting the sounds you like, and then finding out what they use. There are so many different factors (and you won't match all of them) but you can get into the same ballpark, if you can get the big things right (like humbuckers vs. single coils, for example). It can be a good jumping-off point.
After hearing your sound sample, I'm not sure what is going on now.
Sounds like High on Fire without mids.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on December 05, 2012, 01:42:23 PM
Important thing to do while doing that is find an isolated guitar track. Djent was invented by trying to sound like a bass and a snare drum at the same time.
I'm pretty out of it but isn't djent some sort of metalcore subgenre? I generally dislike that sort of stuff.
I agree on the guitar track thing.
Quote from: Lumpy on December 05, 2012, 08:42:24 PM
That wasn't what I expected to hear, at all. That's not clean by any stretch of the imagination. I thought you said your tone was clean, and the problem was just not enough loudness.
This might sound dumb but copying other peoples' formulas isn't a bad way to go. Figure out who is getting the sounds you like, and then finding out what they use. There are so many different factors (and you won't match all of them) but you can get into the same ballpark, if you can get the big things right (like humbuckers vs. single coils, for example). It can be a good jumping-off point.
After hearing your sound sample, I'm not sure what is going on now.
I probably didn't explain myself well enough. The clip I posted was through my Ampeg at about halfway to clipping volume. Clipping as in my solid state Ampeg guitar head clipping because it's too loud. What I've got figured out now is that I need more mids in my tone to cut at practice and live, otherwise I'm very satisfied with the tone I'm getting from my distortion pedal. Will probably get a 300-400 watt SS power amp, a preamp that has a good clean channel for the pedal to run through, another 2x12 with Swamp Thangs, and I'll have to settle on using more mids to cut.
The headroom thing is all about wanting to avoid clipping from the amp. Even with a distortion pedal you can hit that point where you start getting extra/bad distortion from your amp. I just want the pedal distortion, no extra tube or solid state distortion mucking things up from an amp. I'm preaching to the choir of course.
I'm even skeptical about preamps with tubes. If my super distorted signal is going to make them freak out and give me extra distortion then I need to go 100% SS.
Quote from: SunnO))) on December 05, 2012, 10:00:11 PM
Sounds like High on Fire without mids.
I agree although part of that is from my SM57/the recording. It doesn't sound as saturated and dark in person.
You should have a read up on Greg Ginns gear in Black Flag. Your best option could be to get high powered PA power amp rather than paying out the nose for high powered guitar gear. That's if you are determined to go that route....
Quote from: moose23 on December 06, 2012, 06:02:34 AM
You should have a read up on Greg Ginns gear in Black Flag. Your best option could be to get high powered PA power amp rather than paying out the nose for high powered guitar gear. That's if you are determined to go that route....
Leaning towards a Carvin power amp at the moment. USA made super light class D power for a good price. It's the preamp I'm unsure about. I don't want an expensive super complicated one with menus and what not but I do need one with a good clean channel for pedals.
Someone on another forum suggested that I try a bass amp although I tend to read that their preamps are voiced for bass and don't sound right for guitar but I've never played one with a guitar into guitar speakers before. Could be worth a try.
With the 10 band EQ on a head like this you'd think a reasonable guitar tone might be possible to set up at least to accept pedals.
(http://www.keymusic.com/gfx_productcode/90512/Ampeg-SVT450H.jpg)
Or there is the SVT-350 for 350 watts into 4 ohms instead of 450. I've seen these on Craigslist for fairly cheap.
I'm just going around in circles with this.. sorry.
Plug that pedal into the effects loop return and the pre doesn't matter.
Separate pre amp and power amp for guitar was super popular for a while but went out of style in the 90s so lots of used cool guitar power amps to be found. Tube and MOSFET.
Quote from: fallen on December 06, 2012, 09:09:34 PM
Plug that pedal into the effects loop return and the pre doesn't matter.
Not loud enough. You should have a line level signal for power amps and effects loop returns(same thing). Turning up your dirt pedal and an EQ helps but the tone suffers.
I think I've got the perfect solution- Dirt pedal(and my other pedals of course) > Ampeg SS 150(as a preamp) > rear input of a small and light Ampeg PF head.
If one amp fails at a gig I just plug into the other one to finish the set. The little PF sits atop the SS150.
The only question is 350 or 500 watts. My cabs are rated at 600 watts RMS. Will replace the no name slant 4x12 with a Stagecraft diagonal 2x12 with 150 watt Swamp Thangs so the two cabs will still total 600 watt RMS.
It's all coming together now. Thank you all for tolerating my out loud thinking and giving me suggestions.
Fender Rumble 350 watt class D head just bought on the bay for cheap new to use as a power amp. Not as common as the Ampegs but seemingly more reliable and less likely to mysteriously stop working. Will report back on it's slaying capabilities in conjunction with my SS150 and TightMetal. Should crack the beams Manowar/High On Fire style. Second Stagecraft 2x12 with Swamps coming as soon as I can sell enough shit to pay for it. Getting used to adding more mids in the meantime.
Mids are thy friend.
Yes but with moar poooowwweer I can keep the mid adding to a calculated bare minimum.
MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Distortion pedal > SS bass head > guitar speakers. A lot more volume and headroom than I've ever had. The tone is similar to my guitar heads but more beefy if you want it to be. I sound like I work for Fender but the Rumble 350 is a ton of power for the money for guitar.
I love a Happy Ending.
Also, it's good to see that your question was resolved, too. ;)
I'm a happy lad. Saving up for another 2x12 with Swamps to match the one I already have. Then I won't have to worry as much about blowing the mystery speakers in my 4x12 :D
Although Swamps are not EVs so I still need to watch that bass knob.