http://www.grassrootsy.com/2012/02/22/an-open-letter-to-venues-that-exploit-their-musicians/ (http://www.grassrootsy.com/2012/02/22/an-open-letter-to-venues-that-exploit-their-musicians/)
I'd take the $75 dollar gig if it was local. Don't reckon they'd ask me back.
Great read. Applauded.
+1. I've even stopped playing venues lately because as a "fan" I can't stand to listen to the shit they bring in. It seems like the goal of bands around here is not to be talented or have a strong groove or a heavy riff, it's to be as obnoxious and loud as possible. Feedback, cacophony of anti-harmonies, absolute shouting, constant and poorly executed time shifts and drum fills, and of course 100 watt tube amps powering full stacks in a 1200 sq ft room. I have better things to do on a Saturday evening than listen to 3 or 4 god awful bands just so my band can entertain the people we brought out. That's why I'm working on playing non-traditional places and constantly turning down venue owners. We bring people, their shitty tactics drive them away.
Quote from: AgentofOblivion on August 28, 2013, 12:24:03 PM
+1. I've even stopped playing venues lately because as a "fan" I can't stand to listen to the shit they bring in. It seems like the goal of bands around here is not to be talented or have a strong groove or a heavy riff, it's to be as obnoxious and loud as possible. Feedback, cacophony of anti-harmonies, absolute shouting, constant and poorly executed time shifts and drum fills, and of course 100 watt tube amps powering full stacks in a 1200 sq ft room. I have better things to do on a Saturday evening than listen to 3 or 4 god awful bands just so my band can entertain the people we brought out. That's why I'm working on playing non-traditional places and constantly turning down venue owners. We bring people, their shitty tactics drive them away.
Are these sludge or metalcore bands? Just curious.
Cant get the link to work, maybe they are swamped with traffic
Problem is there are so many bands willing to play for cheap or free or even pay to play that ruin it for everyone.
Quote from: Lumpy on August 28, 2013, 02:18:19 PM
Cant get the link to work, maybe they are swamped with traffic
The below post has earned quite alot of attention over the last seven weeks. Full-time saxophonist, Dave Goldberg, wrote an honest letter to venue owners addressing their disregard and exploitation of the working musicians. The post is powerful and I asked David if I could republish this article on Grassrootsy. I'm hoping that you'll read this and think about what part you play. Venues can take advantage of you, but only if you let them. [original post]
______________________________________________________________________________
As Ive been looking for gigs lately, I've never seen so many free and low paying gigs. Well the economy is bad, so I can understand that a little bit. However, it is no longer good enough for the musician to be willing to perform for little compensation. Now we are expected to also be the venue promoter? The expectations are that the band will not only provide great music, but also bring lots of people to their venue. It is now the band'sresponsibility to make this happen, not the club owner.
Just the other day I was told by someone who owned a wine bar that they really liked our music and would love for us to play at their place. She then told me the gig paid $75 for a trio. Now $75 used to be bad money per person, let alone $75 for the whole band. It had to be a joke, right? No, she was serious. But it didn't end there. She then informed us we had to bring 25 people minimum. Didn't even offer us extra money if we brought 25 people. I would have laughed other than it's not the first time I've gotten this proposal from club owners. But are there musicians really doing this? Yes. They are so desperate to play, they will do anything. But let's think about this for a second and turn this around a little bit.
What if I told the wine bar owner that I have a great band and we are going to play at my house. I need someone to provide and pour wine while we play. I can't pay much, just $75, and you must bring at least 25 people who are willing to pay a $10 cover charge at the door. Now wouldn't they look at you like you are crazy?
"Why would I do that?" they would ask. Well because it's great exposure for you and your wine bar. The people there would see how well you pour wine and see how good your wine is. Then they would come out to your wine bar sometime. "But I brought all the people myself, I already know them", they would say. Well maybe you could make up some professional looking flyers, pass them out, and get people you don't know to come on out. "But you are only paying me $75. How can I afford to make up flyers?"
You see how absurd this sounds, but musicians do this all the time. If they didn't, then the club owners wouldn't even think of asking us to do it. So this sounds like a great deal for the club owners, doesn't it? They get a band and customers for that night, and have to pay very little if anything. But what they don'trealize is that this is NOT in their best interest.
If you want great food, you hire a great chef...It needs to be the same with the band. You hire a great band and should expect great music.
Running a restaurant, a club, a bar, is really hard. There is a lot at stake for the owner. You are trying to get loyal customers that will return because you are offering them something special. If you want great food, you hire a great chef. If you want great décor,you hire a great interior decorator. You expect these professionals to do their best at what you are hiring them to do. It needs to be the same with the band. You hire a great band and should expect great music. That should be the end of your expectations for the musicians. The music is another product for the venue to offer, no different from food or beverages.
When a venue opens it's doors, it has to market itself. The club owner can't expect people to just walk in the door. This has to be handled in a professional way. Do you really want to leave something so important up to a musician? This is where the club owner needs to take over. It is their success or their failure on the line, not the musician. The musician can just move on to another venue. I've played places where, for whatever reason, only a few people have walked in the door on a Saturday night. The club owner got mad at me, asking, "where are the people?" I turned it around on him asking the same thing? "Where are all the people? It's Saturday night and your venue is empty. Doesn't that concern you? What are you going to do about it?" Usually their answer is to find another band with a larger following.This means the professional bands get run out of the joint in favor of whoever can bring in the most people.
But here's where the club owner doesn't get it. The Crowd is following the band, not the venue. The next night you will have to start all over again.
Eddie Mechanic, who has slaved all week fixing cars at the local dealership, also plays guitar. Not very well,but he's been practicing once a week with Doctor Drummer, Banker Bass Player, and Salesman Singer. Usually they just drink beer between rehearsing a few tunes in Eddie's garage, but this week they answer a craigslist ad and line up a big gig. Well they don't sound that good, but they sure all work with a lot of people everyday. All these people can be given a flyeron Monday and after being asked "are you coming to my gig?" everyday all week, will most likely show up on Saturday night. So mission accomplished, the club owner has packed his venue for one night.
But here's where the club owner doesn't get it. The Crowd is following the band, not the venue. The next night you will have to start all over again. And the people that were starting to follow your venue, are now turned off because you just made them listen to a bad band. The goal should be to build a fan base for the venue. To get people that will trust that you will have good music in there every night. Instead you've soiled your reputation for a quick fix.
I think we as musicians need to fight back. Sure You can get mad about it, but that won't do anything.We could all agree not to play those for the door gigs, but you know that isn't going to happen. But what we can do, is explain to the club owner that it's not in their best interest to operate their business like this. There is too much at stake for them not to be truly interested in the music presented in their venue. Convince them that if they think that live music is important to the demographic that they are trying to reach, then they need to reach out to that demographic in a professional way. [Read "HOW TO NEGOTIATE WITH A VENUE THAT SAYS THEY CAN'T PAY YOU"]
If you asked a club owner, "who is your target demographic?" I doubt they would answer, "the band's friends and family." But yet clubs operate like it is.
Would you expect the chef's friends and family to eat at your restaurant every night? How about the dishwasher, the waitresses, the hostess? You see, when you start turning this argument around, it becomes silly.
Another example, I answered a craigslist ad for a nice looking place in Beverly Hills. The ad read... "looking for a high energy jazz band, if you can bring the band and have a following, I will put you on stage." That logic seams to say that they think musicians in a jazz band know lots of people living in Beverly Hills. And the people those musicians know, have lots of money to spend. Those are two pretty big assumptions. Good luck finding the combination. Even if you find that combination, are you going to find it every night? Friends and family of a professional musician won't come out that often. They can't. This is what we do every night. Would you expect the chef's friends and family to eat at your restaurant every night? How about the dishwasher, the waitresses, the hostess? Or how about the club owners friends and family? You see, when you start turning this argument around, it becomes silly.
I've started arguing with club owners about this. It happened after I played a great night of music in LA. We were playing for a % of the bar. There were about50 people there in this small venue, so it was a good turnout. At the end of the night, I go to get paid, and hope to book another gig. The club owner was angry. "Where are your people?" he asked. "All these people, I brought in. We had a speed dating event and they are all left over from that." I pointed out they all stayed and listened to the music for 2 hours after their event ended. That was 2 more hours of bar sales, because without us, you have an empty room with nothing going on. He just couldn't get over the fact that we didn't walk in with our own entourage of fans. Wasn't he happy that we kept a full room spending money? Right when we were talking, a group of people interrupted us and said "you guys sound great, when is the next time you're playing here again?" The club owner, said "they aren't, they didn't bring anyone."
I went home that night bummed out and sent him an email telling him most of what you are reading here and how his business model and thinking is flawed. After a lot of swearing back and forth, because I'm guessing that musicians never talk to him as a business equal. He eventually admitted that what I was saying made sense. BUT, that's not how LA clubs and restaurants work. And he has bands answering his craigslist ads willing to do whatever it takes to get the gig. It's been a couple of years now since that conversation. I called his bar, and the number is disconnected.
So there you go, LA club and restaurant owners.The advice is free. But you'll most likely ignore it because "that's not how it works". But if more musicians kept telling them the same thing, perhaps it would start to sink in.
I guess most of us fit into the hobbyists, but maybe if club owners were a little more savvy, the cream of the hobbyists would rise to the top?
That article might be apt for your average jazz joint or blues bar..but in most towns for the music we do, there are only one or two places that do this kind of thing and have these bands. people who go to shows at these places know that if they go on a night when there is not a big name band , they are gonna see some shitty local bands and maybe just maybe discover a good local band. The clubs rep doesnt suffer at all if some band sucks, people expect it on off nights and the clubs make their money on fridays and saturdays when the big boys come to play and fill the club. You'll still go back to cbgbs no matter how many shitty sunday matinees youve endured there ;)
Quote from: Chovie D on August 28, 2013, 03:27:47 PM
That article might be apt for your avergae jazz joint or blues bar..but in most towns for the music we do, there are only one or two places that do this kind of thing and have these bands. people who go to shows at these places know that if they go on a night when there is not a big name band , they are gonna see some shitty local bands and maybe just maye idscover a good local band. The clubs rep doesnt suffer at all if some band sucks, people expect it on off nights and the clubs make their money on fridays and saturdays when the big boys come to play and fill the club. You'll still go back to cbgbs no matter how many shitty sunday matinees youve endured there ;)
well said.
well said, horribly typed. sorry for all the typos
There's nothing better than tasting the tears of crying out of work musicians.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 28, 2013, 12:41:04 PM
Quote from: AgentofOblivion on August 28, 2013, 12:24:03 PM
+1. I've even stopped playing venues lately because as a "fan" I can't stand to listen to the shit they bring in. It seems like the goal of bands around here is not to be talented or have a strong groove or a heavy riff, it's to be as obnoxious and loud as possible. Feedback, cacophony of anti-harmonies, absolute shouting, constant and poorly executed time shifts and drum fills, and of course 100 watt tube amps powering full stacks in a 1200 sq ft room. I have better things to do on a Saturday evening than listen to 3 or 4 god awful bands just so my band can entertain the people we brought out. That's why I'm working on playing non-traditional places and constantly turning down venue owners. We bring people, their shitty tactics drive them away.
Are these sludge or metalcore bands? Just curious.
I'm not great with knowing what all the subgenres mean, but a lot of them fit into the "hardcore" scene I think. A lot of bands around here seem to do it, so maybe it's just me. That said, there are a couple bands that I DO like in the category. I just don't know if it's a talent thing or a me thing. Chances are it's a me thing :)
I don't really agree with that dude. I'm absolutely floored the band got a percentage of the bar.
usually when I go to a show, i go only to see the band Im going to see. IF there is an opener, or god forbid 3 openers, I stay at nearby bars until its showtime.
I guess the clubs lose out on my drink money for that hour, but they get my door money.
this article is more for the bars on a strip that try and attract walk-ins I think?
"the blues band at JimmyJams really sucked. IM never going back there, next time Ill go two doors down and check out Puddfuckers or across the street to Shotkickers."
Promote?
Maaan... I just play and get paid. Why didn't you have more people watching me play? It's your club. I feel exploited.
...And By the way I know I didn't shell anything out to stock the bar, but I prefer to be paid off of the top of the bar sales. While your at it, have the bartender tip me out too.
"percentage of bar"=we are going to lie to you say we made nothing and give you zilch.
"but I brought twenty friends and they all told me they spent 20$ at the bar?"
"NO, NO, you get a percentage of the CREDIT CARD sales, didnt we explain that to you?"
its never worked out for me
Quote from: Demon Lung on August 28, 2013, 04:39:57 PM
There's nothing better than tasting the tears of crying out of work musicians.
Wow, you're even more of a douchenozzle than I had thought.
More than two paragraphs = something I can't be bothered to read unless I'm being paid to read it.
thats leaves out most books and even the penthouse forum...good on ya! :D
Quote from: Chovie D on August 28, 2013, 05:23:26 PM
"percentage of bar"=we are going to lie to you say we made nothing and give you zilch.
"but I brought twenty friends and they all told me they spent 20$ at the bar?"
"NO, NO, you get a percentage of the CREDIT CARD sales, didnt we explain that to you?"
its never worked out for me
Yep, I've been ripped off like that before too. The best time is when you see the door man pack it in and run with the money while you are still playing! Had that happen twice!
"We could all agree not to play those for the door gigs, but you know that isn't going to happen."
???
When the door gets $5 or $7 from 30/50/80 people for 3 or 4 bands it ain't much per person but it's reasonable enough to me. Of course I'm thinking about underground rock/metal shows at small venues some of which don't even have a sound person and big PA. Paying the sound person from drink sale money works when people actually show up. Plenty of bills just suck ass though. Also many people would rather be sleeping or gazing into a screen of some sort, great bands or not, advertised or not. It ain't the '70s anymore, sadly.
Quote from: AgentofOblivion on August 28, 2013, 04:49:29 PM
Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 28, 2013, 12:41:04 PM
Quote from: AgentofOblivion on August 28, 2013, 12:24:03 PM
+1. I've even stopped playing venues lately because as a "fan" I can't stand to listen to the shit they bring in. It seems like the goal of bands around here is not to be talented or have a strong groove or a heavy riff, it's to be as obnoxious and loud as possible. Feedback, cacophony of anti-harmonies, absolute shouting, constant and poorly executed time shifts and drum fills, and of course 100 watt tube amps powering full stacks in a 1200 sq ft room. I have better things to do on a Saturday evening than listen to 3 or 4 god awful bands just so my band can entertain the people we brought out. That's why I'm working on playing non-traditional places and constantly turning down venue owners. We bring people, their shitty tactics drive them away.
Are these sludge or metalcore bands? Just curious.
I'm not great with knowing what all the subgenres mean, but a lot of them fit into the "hardcore" scene I think. A lot of bands around here seem to do it, so maybe it's just me. That said, there are a couple bands that I DO like in the category. I just don't know if it's a talent thing or a me thing. Chances are it's a me thing :)
you would hate my band..
Do y'all play that loud music like Eyehategod and Discharge?
Who likes that garbage? :D
But seriously when sludge, hardcore, whatever is done badly and with bad vocals, get me the fuck out of the room. I know that sometimes the vocals are supposed to be tortured and/or bad but..
Random thoughts:
"Good bands" versus "bad bands" is often subjective... (clubs should book the "good" bands and promote the show for them, instead of ruining their reputation with "bad" bands)
It was interesting to get to the end, and see who wrote it (and say "who?")
QuoteI've played places where, for whatever reason, only a few people have walked in the door on a Saturday night. The club owner got mad at me, asking, "where are the people?" I turned it around on him asking the same thing? "Where are all the people? It's Saturday night and your venue is empty. Doesn't that concern you? What are you going to do about it?" Usually their answer is to find another band with a larger following. This means the professional bands get run out of the joint in favor of whoever can bring in the most people.
Um, duh? That seems totally logical.
Article seems to be anger coming from a different era, pre-internet/Netflix/video games/"cocooning" era (what they used to call it). Attendance is down for all kinds of shit, including movies.
Also, looks like the author plays "contemporary jazz", one of the least popular musical genres, with album sales in the hundreds. I'm sure the guys in the rockabilly scene are equally pissed. I play noise, an even less popular style of music, and I have no illusions about how club owners should be promoting my music. I would assume it's the same for stoner rock.
Quote from: Lumpy on August 29, 2013, 02:35:20 AM
"Good bands" versus "bad bands" is often subjective... (clubs should book the "good" bands and promote the show for them, instead of ruining their reputation with "bad" bands)
Really it's all about fanbases and how well known a band is. No matter how good a band is if they have little to no fanbase in an area a big club can promote the fuck out of them and very few people will show up. If they do little to promote Saint Vitus or BB King or Vanilla Ice some people are still going to show up because of word of mouth and what not.
Small venues and clubs host "bad" bands all the time, more often during the week. They are called local bands. They aren't all "bad" but most of them are mediocre at best.
The dude speaks in terms that sound otherworldly to me to be honest. Here either you play for door money or you get a flat fee. Usually you get some free beers and if you're lucky, some food but that's only if you're playing with a touring band. Also, the promotor puts on the show not the venue. Promotor pays the soundguy/venue first, then the bands and if he got some left, keep it as a further investment for the next show. Or be all DIY and give it to the bands (for instance if the promotor asked for a lower flat fee).
Quote from: MichaelZodiac on August 29, 2013, 06:15:25 AM
The dude speaks in terms that sound otherworldly to me to be honest. Here either you play for door money or you get a flat fee. Usually you get some free beers and if you're lucky, some food but that's only if you're playing with a touring band. Also, the promotor puts on the show not the venue. Promotor pays the soundguy/venue first, then the bands and if he got some left, keep it as a further investment for the next show. Or be all DIY and give it to the bands (for instance if the promotor asked for a lower flat fee).
I've found that's how it is most places.
The dude that sent wrote that letter is living in another time. It's sad but it's a fact. I don't know how anyone can live off of being a full time musician. Unless you're a studio guy or in a famous band or something
I'm surprised just how cynical you guys are. Granted, you might just say you're "realistic," but the reality is that it's perfectly okay to be discontent with the imbalance of power. I won't poo poo anyone who raises what I think are pretty reasonable questions.
i just think this guy is analyzing it from a perspective that most of us here dont share.
I hear the same thing alot from older country musicians, many of whom had to be union in order to be allowed to even perform.
The clubs actually pay them less now than they did in the 70's. They have some pretty high expectations in my opinion.
In terms of promoting the shows, for touring bands, thats kind of on the club right?
Maybe some of you have experienced this also? Before you tour you spend quite a bit of money sending out promo packs to all the clubs you're gonna play. 8x10 glossy, cd for their jukebox, flyers, posters to hang up, etc. Invariably when you get to the club, you'll find your promo package (that they asked you to send them!) unopened in a pile of other unopened mail behind the bar. so my impression is the club doesnt give a shit abut how many people come to the show.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 29, 2013, 01:08:19 AM
Do y'all play that loud music like Eyehategod and Discharge?
Who likes that garbage? :D
But seriously when sludge, hardcore, whatever is done badly and with bad vocals, get me the fuck out of the room. I know that sometimes the vocals are supposed to be tortured and/or bad but..
Exactly. I can usually appreciate a genre that I'm not a fan of when it's done well. There's a band here called Everything Went Black that normally isn't my cup of tea but they fucking rock it hard. But there's also 100 bands like them that are just fucking terrible. I've played after some of these bands at local shows and they literally cleared the whole place out of people that we didn't bring directly. It killed any chance we had of winning some new people over. I mean, 1 minute into their set people started leaving in groups of 4 every 10 seconds. By their 3rd song the place was a ghost town. But these guys have a lot of friends that are in popular local bands so they get all these gigs, some for awesome national acts. Yes, I'm bitter.
I think the guy makes some reasonably logical arguments. But that aside, it's simple supply and demand. There's a ton of bands out there that will play for peanuts just because they want to play somewhere that isn't their basement, for whatever reason. Large supply + little demand = no money. Whether it is sustainable or not is a different question. Usually a new band, no matter how much they suck, can draw pretty well for the first few shows if they have supportive friends and family. By the time that runs dry and the band stops playing shows there are 100 new bands that have started.
I would love for a venue to get started (and I've considered doing it, though definitely a pipe dream at this point) that had a high standard of music quality and created an awesome atmosphere that added to it. Different nights could cater to different genres or something, but mostly people knew that if they came there they would see something worthy of their time and money. Sounds straight-forward enough, but it probably takes quite a long time of building that reputation and time is money. I'm guessing this type of venue is rare because it's easier to take the other path and there's just not enough great local bands in many regions to support it.
Im gonna put some of it back on the bands and say this;
alot of bands have a mindset that its okay for their fanbase to consist ENTIRELY of their family and friends, and still expect to get paying gigs.
sorry but your never gonna have enough friends to make it profitable for the club to pay you wht you think you deserve.
set your sights on expanding your fanbase to beyond people you already know and do the work necessary ot make that happen. THEN you can command a fee.
til then..yes IM sorry, be grateful the club is letting your horrible hobby band play for your friends and parents I guess.
also. I kinda think pay is for professionals not hobbyists or amatuers.
(which means I shouldve never gotten paid I guess)
More random thoughts...
If there are 50 people watching your show (they are there to see you) and you didn't get paid, then you got ripped off.
Door guy gets $50, sound guy gets $50. Yes, they gotta get paid before the band, because the club needs them to show up every night, reliably. 20 people paid $5 to see your band? Break even. (these may be old numbers... might be more like $100 each nowadays).
If nobody comes to see your set, who is supposed to pay your band? The club owner, from the bottom of his heart? LOL. Don't get me wrong, it does happen. But you can't keep the doors open, doing that. And keeping the doors open is more important to the club than paying your band.
A friend of mine is an independent promoter. He said he looks for opening bands who can bring in 20 more people (20 people who didn't only come to see the headliner). If you can't get 20 people to watch your band, you need to accept the idea that you're not gonna make money with your band, and don't be mad at promoters. If the only audience you have is friends and family, you're in this category.
Problem is, Bars got lazy and realized they could charge huge door fees and make money. In the old days, they booked good bands and gave them a percentage of the take that night. The drunk driving laws have also taken their toll on live music in bars.
Eh, fuck playing bars if they won't pay.
There is a robust house/squat/warehouse scene in my city.
how much do squats pay?
On topic? 35-year old semi-legendary club Maxwell's in Hoboken is for sale ($650,000). You won't own the building, just the license and name, etc. Rent is 10-15k per month.
QuoteCause of death: rising rents and "a changing nightlife culture where high-def TVs are valued over live rock 'n' roll," according to booker and co-owner Todd Abramson.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/08/legendary_hoboken_club_maxwells_can_be_yours.php (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/08/legendary_hoboken_club_maxwells_can_be_yours.php)
I see Hollywood Alley in Phoenix (Mesa?) AZ just closed (Stoner Hand of Doom was there one year).
Quote"They just crunched the numbers, and I think where every [other] time they decided to give it another go for another six months, they finally made the decision to pull the plug," Tynor says.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/2013/07/hollywood-alley-closing-mesa.php (http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/2013/07/hollywood-alley-closing-mesa.php)
once I was in a band that could fill the local club here...the tractor. those gigs paid very well.The bar made money, the bartenders made alot of money, everyone was happy.
I played the same place many other times with other bands that could not even come close to filling it and I wasnt paid well for those gigs. to me this made sense for everyone.
Quote from: Chovie D on August 29, 2013, 05:33:58 PM
how much do squats pay?
People have been pretty good with passing the hat or letting bands put someone at the door and collect for the band.
That and bj's from train hopper crusties.
I guess you could be like MODC and play vegan co-ops for bread crusts and hummus. ???
Quote from: Lumpy on August 29, 2013, 06:16:11 PM
On topic? 35-year old semi-legendary club Maxwell's in Hoboken is for sale ($650,000). You won't own the building, just the license and name, etc. Rent is 10-15k per month.
QuoteCause of death: rising rents and "a changing nightlife culture where high-def TVs are valued over live rock 'n' roll," according to booker and co-owner Todd Abramson.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/08/legendary_hoboken_club_maxwells_can_be_yours.php (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/08/legendary_hoboken_club_maxwells_can_be_yours.php)
I see Hollywood Alley in Phoenix (Mesa?) AZ just closed (Stoner Hand of Doom was there one year).
Quote"They just crunched the numbers, and I think where every [other] time they decided to give it another go for another six months, they finally made the decision to pull the plug," Tynor says.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/2013/07/hollywood-alley-closing-mesa.php (http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/2013/07/hollywood-alley-closing-mesa.php)
Damn. We played that SHoD.
Quote from: spookstrickland on August 29, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
Problem is, Bars got lazy and realized they could charge huge door fees and make money. In the old days, they booked good bands and gave them a percentage of the take that night. The drunk driving laws have also taken their toll on live music in bars.
I'm not so sure I agree with the bar owners getting lazy thing. Most of the ones I've played have been fans of the heavy and got into the biz, because they loved the music, the vibe and bars generally can make money. If their open seven days a week... Three bands a night... Uh 21 good bands is really tough to find. That's not laziness. So cover bands it is!!!
The DUI thing is spot on though. A cab ride for me to get home from the milestone would cost me $50 and I'd have to leave my car in the hood, where it would last all of 20 minutes after the last dude left the property.
I'd pay it if it was a show for the ages (Melvin's in The Milestone-CHOICE!!!) but that's once every ten years or so.
Quote from: spookstrickland on August 29, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
Problem is, Bars got lazy and realized they could charge huge door fees and make money.
When was this? Big shows are usually overpriced but when bars try to charge too much people don't go unless the bands are big name. Where I live people just won't show up for underground/local heavy rock/metal shows that are more than 5 or $7. High On Fire or Melvins and they can(and have to) charge more but I'm not talking about that level of success. I think part of it is the economy and part of it is everyone sitting on their asses at home on the internet like I am right now or watching Netflix. In my defense I just got off work and am planning on going to bed early so I can get up early and take a 90 minute bicycle ride before I get to the dozen things I have to do before band practice. :)
Yeah but some of us play music because we want to and money has little to do with it. The touring band needs to make money in order to continue the trip. People like us can afford to leak a few bucks to make a local gig happen. Maybe we'll make something at the end of the night; cool but not necessary in most cases. I don't see much difference if I were to rent a generator and make an outdoor party happen. Do it for fun and adventure. I'm just not in a position to demand or expect more than a busker gets for his or her time. Even though my band and I can perform at a high level, I've got a day job that I like so why give a fuck about how much I can make playing music? It's a nice place to reside as a lifer.
^ I feel the same way.
The idea of some rich venue owner making loads of cash off my band and bands on the same level does bother me but since that is basically impossible I'll not let it. If we were to tour(probably never going to happen) and got next to nothing for a gig that 100+ people attended because "man well I had to pay the soundguy and the door guy and security and you know pad my retirement fund with the drink money because I'm not doing this until I die", yeah, that would suck balls.
Not to mention that most of us play sets of 30 to 45 minutes. That's easy compared to some lame cover band that is obligated to play multiple long sets and endure random requests. Uggh
Being in a cover band in the '60s or '70s when popular music was better and the money was good could have been a great gig. You know, compared to customer service or stocking shelves or even some higher paying jobs actually. You wanna hear Inna-Godda? Okay!
In semi-related news, just tried a cover of Sunshine of Your Love last night and used an Earthquaker devices fuzz...holy hell it sounded badass.
There are two bars here in Dallas that come to mind that have a gig room and a separate and normal bar. Both do well with bands and without bands. I've never gigged at either but I'd guess that both have accurate band payout. ie basement noise = basement pay and smooth contemporary jazz = zero money. I bet both are good places to grow a following for any band willing to pay their dues. Also, there is a jazz bar that has a band every night and that place is packed thur-sat. I wish i could get on with the house band there (but I am a hack) those cats make money. I think the jazz dude writer of the column just hasn't found his niche in town. Perhaps he needs to be in a bigger city, or not be in a town like Nashville. Both the jazz dude and the bar owner need to smarter buisness men. If the bar owner needs bands to get people to come on a Saturday night he is fucked, it's a bar for god's sake. And, Jazz boy needs to market his ass. In Dallas if you want to make money playing guitar everyone knows you'd better be in a country band. Otherwise, gtfo baby. Chicken pick'n.
A guy I went to school with posted this letter on his wall. He does chiptunes.
had to look up chip tunes. And, that is funny.