Playing in a band with people with other ideas thread

Chest Rockwell · August 27, 2014, 06:28:06 AM

Doesn't it suck having to deal with other people's ideas? Usually when yours are better? Or they ignore or don't want to try your ideas, which are great and would make a given section or tune the best music ever created? Or maybe they just constantly have gear issues (fucking gear heads)? Or maybe just getting them to stop making a noise and concentrate on playing/writing music instead of fucking about?

How do you deal with these issues?

Jake · August 27, 2014, 07:21:31 AM

The same way I deal with most things: scissoring, but with buttholes.

Chest Rockwell · August 27, 2014, 07:33:10 AM

Hmm. I'll give that a try.

Pissy · August 27, 2014, 08:21:20 AM

Do the Raw Power thing and sneak in to the studio the night before sending the recording off to be mastered, then insert superior song bit.

They'll thank you in the end.

No, really if you're a Type A kind of guy, then it's tough to be in a band with other headstrong dudes. The only thing I can figure would work, would be to write songs independently. If dude has a song idea, then it's his. Do what he say, then bring your own song and make sure they do what you say. This all needs to be prefaced with the understanding that that is how you all will write your songs. Set boundaries, don't cross them and don't allow them to be crossed.

Otherwise you fight a lot. Band dissolves, and then you all are back to the drawing board. This is where most bands with multiple 'leaders' end up anyways.

everdrone · August 27, 2014, 08:29:41 AM

well you have gotta realize:

1) how important are your ideas. you may consider forming a project.

2) what does their leadership mean to you. if they are leading, but no meaningful results, then they are fake leaders and I don't deal well with that. sometimes leaders are the ones that supply the practice space and book gigs etc, and then you gotta be the follower in that case.

RAGER · August 27, 2014, 08:52:07 AM

How do I deal with it? I buy a bunch of synths and assorted accoutrements and hole up in the studio/basement. by myself!

liquidsmoke · August 27, 2014, 01:24:20 PM

How about when they don't bring any actual music to the table but try to tell you what type of styles to play when you write? Fucking super.

Just like with romantic relationships, if it doesn't feel right and you can't fix it, end it.

jibberish · August 28, 2014, 01:06:35 AM

Quote from: Chest Rockwell on August 27, 2014, 06:28:06 AM
Doesn't it suck having to deal with other people's ideas? Usually when yours are better? Or they ignore or don't want to try your ideas, which are great and would make a given section or tune the best music ever created? Or maybe they just constantly have gear issues (fucking gear heads)? Or maybe just getting them to stop making a noise and concentrate on playing/writing music instead of fucking about?

How do you deal with these issues?

the other dude is probably posting the same post in his online forum

nothing personal, but this sounds super egotistical and quite dickish.....

although, we don't know the rules of the band. if it was CR and HIS posse. it's all about following CR's leadership. if it is a common interest group, then why wouldn't all ideas be of equivalent value, or at least all be considered in the mix?

if you are a punk rocker, you get a pass, otherwise I think you may have some issues.

mortlock · August 28, 2014, 01:24:34 AM

its all about chemistry..you either got it or you don't. there are degrees of chemistry. don't get me wrong. but you either got it or you don't..

giantchris · August 28, 2014, 01:26:39 AM

Easy solution. If everyone doesn't agree on an idea it's not being used. Period. The other thing to consider is maybe this guy isn't the right person for you to be in a band with...I've run into issues personally where people say they like doom/sludge but they only like a handful of bands that incorporate these elements and aren't actual fans of the genre.

Sleazy Cortez · August 28, 2014, 02:28:18 AM

In Sleazy Cortez i bring em to the table and then those guys usually make em even better. A lot of times I wish they'd know what I have in mind a little better but with communication and patience we usually end up making some goodness. It is hard to get them to calm down and groove sometimes but hey in a threepiece it sure helps when everyone is badass at their instruments. We're going into the studio on Sunday, so buy our album.

Chest Rockwell · August 28, 2014, 05:27:07 AM

Jibber, my post was meant humorously/sarcastically, that should have been pretty obvious. Although the question is a genuine one, and it's obviously a universal issue.

my main band Thorun has been going over four years now and we do bang heads but when the sweet riffs flow or we hit the occasional sweet spot, writers block gets swept away. There are no major difficulties and we definitely have at least two 'Type A' guys (me and one of the guitarists), but neither of us walk up with fully formed ideas. I'm totally guilty of not putting shit together myself.

My skills, if I say so myself, are building tunes and 'hearing' where shit should or shouldnt go, and maybe how many times this or that could or shouldnt happen, etc etc. (I cant play guitar or drums for shit, but they can, very well!). I put this down to 25 years of devouring Metal and other music and just enjoying a nice groove. avoid the clunky and the boring, keep the interest up. Sometimes we hit it and sometimes we have filler. Hopefully we get better with time. ---> we're also totally a democratic team btw. no-one rules anything, hopefully best ideas rise to the top.

I think we've learned to live with eachother reasonably well, as we're still together (*sheds tear*)

the other band is newer. more garage/loose heavy rock, and seems to have a mix of nearly 'Type A's, we write pretty fast but as this isn't my main band I'll hang back more and just 'do bass'. I'm cool with that.

it's obviously an issue tho. funny, maintaining a band is as much about personal relations as it is about music. You always think it sucks when you find out your fave bands have guys that dont like eachother or dont hang out... and then you start a band and go... 'oh'

Danny G · August 28, 2014, 10:27:27 AM

Interesting that you're actively creative in your band as a bass player.

I've had little creative input in bands I play bass in, partially because my own playing is so dependent on kick/snare pattern and tying it in with the guitar part that I kind of have to wait until drums/guitar are figured out before I can really write a bass line. If either of them change anything, I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.

I write lots of music but don't write basslines by themselves. So if I come in with an idea, the bass line by itself might not make a whole lot of sense unless I say 'here's the kick/snare pattern, here is a basic guitar part'.

In a group writing session I can suggest a chord change, but can't really drive and direct the jams on bass the way I can on guitar.

everdrone · August 28, 2014, 11:00:26 AM

Quote from: Danny G on August 28, 2014, 10:27:27 AM

I've had little creative input in bands I play bass in, partially because my own playing is so dependent on kick/snare pattern and tying it in with the guitar part that I kind of have to wait until drums/guitar are figured out before I can really write a bass line. If either of them change anything, I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.

I write lots of music but don't write basslines by themselves. So if I come in with an idea, the bass line by itself might not make a whole lot of sense unless I say 'here's the kick/snare pattern, here is a basic guitar part'.

In a group writing session I can suggest a chord change, but can't really drive and direct the jams on bass the way I can on guitar.

I agree with this. when I play bass I feel the note choice is limited by the root note and the guitar cords played, and rhythym limited by drums. bass is like the afterthought that glues it all together. for bass, I will bring in a song and then I feel creative about it. sometimes on bass I step on my distortion pedal so it is more like guitar when I want to engrain a certain rhythym and choice of root note/tune on the others, but that seems to be the only way to be the leader on bass (I am not a singer but I bet singer/bass player types can lead and be more creative in the song structure).

VOLVO))) · August 28, 2014, 11:05:41 AM

I write on bass a lot, mostly because I have it set so I am basically playing guitar anyways. The guitarist in my band is mostly a chord player, no flourish... So i get to take over when it's called for. I usually hang back and throw down octaves, big slides and fuck with the drummer by throwing in notes on weird accents.

liquidsmoke · August 28, 2014, 12:06:39 PM

Quote from: everdrone on August 28, 2014, 11:00:26 AM
(I am not a singer but I bet singer/bass player types can lead and be more creative in the song structure).

Cream.

Jake · August 28, 2014, 12:22:11 PM

The best advice I think I can give is to try to be as open minded as possible. We all like to think that we are, but it's not always the reality.

You describe yourself as a very immersed listener of music, so you will know very well how some albums might not vibe with you on the first—or even the first several listens. Some even take years. But for me, those "difficult" albums have far and away become some of my favorite albums of all time.

So try to apply that context to the songcraft in your group. If a riff, arrangement, use of an effect, or whatever doesn't sit right at first (or even for the first several times), try to give it the benefit of longevity and thoughtfulness. If it's still an aberration, what can you do to help fix it? Simplify it? Shorten it? Complicate it? Add a hook? Change the key? Write a complimentary part? Change the arrangement? There's an infinite number of things to try. But, being mortal, there's only so much we have the time or talent to overcome.

But the single most important part is that we are open minded about the process, which everyone involved in a collaboration like a rock band can respect. In fact, that might even something that one should demand of bandmates.

Plus, butthole scissoring is a quick way to end a difference of opinion.

jibberish · August 28, 2014, 02:11:08 PM

haha, yeah you got me. I thought you were serious and I was trying to be candid in case you were about to screw up.

MichaelZodiac · August 28, 2014, 02:40:33 PM

I play bass and can only play bass. I'm better at drums than I am at guitar so there's not really a middle ground when I play with my band. I learned to play by ear mostly so I think I wouldn't do well with guitar players that are theoretically better versed than me unless they could show it to me. We jam pretty much always. I start playing something or the drummer starts playing a drum beat he has in his head and we go off from there. Once we start it's pretty much "we'll keep on playing and see where it leads". Sometimes it leads us to cool places, other times it's just not it. Once we got something good, we record it for memory's sake. Usually both of us will listen to it at home and suggest arrangement or add a new part/variation to it. Once in a blue moon we meet up to solely listen to every recording we have and take notes on everything.

In terms of ideas besides the songs (placement in set, titles, ...), I usually have stuff floating in my head and take those to band practice. If the other dudes like it, we do that. If not, I come up with new stuff.

Corey Y · August 28, 2014, 04:31:48 PM

My problem is I can't even get people to start a band with me anymore, no one will show up consistently. I sit at home and write songs, record demos, setup auditions and....nothing. I've tried out almost a dozen drummers in the past 6 months, any that are interested just flake and never show up again. Can't get any guitarists without a drummer locked down. I started putting up ads to find a band to join, just so I can play regularly, nothing. I've had a couple people outside the situation pose to me that maybe I'm intimidating people with being too organized and motivated, but that makes it sound like I'm too good for other musicians and I'm definitely not.

Maybe I need to change my deodorant brand.

everdrone · August 28, 2014, 04:45:57 PM

Quote from: Corey Y on August 28, 2014, 04:31:48 PM
My problem is I can't even get people to start a band with me anymore, no one will show up consistently. I sit at home and write songs, record demos, setup auditions and....nothing. I've tried out almost a dozen drummers in the past 6 months, any that are interested just flake and never show up again. Can't get any guitarists without a drummer locked down. I started putting up ads to find a band to join, just so I can play regularly, nothing. I've had a couple people outside the situation pose to me that maybe I'm intimidating people with being too organized and motivated, but that makes it sound like I'm too good for other musicians and I'm definitely not.

Maybe I need to change my deodorant brand.

you live in Salinas, CA right? I have lived there before. I jammed with some rock musicians like only one time when I lived there. Do you speak Spanish? If music were super important to me and I did not like Tejano Music, I would prolly move, that may be the issue there since you are pretty good at heavy rock

Corey Y · August 28, 2014, 04:56:11 PM

Quote from: everdrone on August 28, 2014, 04:45:57 PM
Quote from: Corey Y on August 28, 2014, 04:31:48 PM
My problem is I can't even get people to start a band with me anymore, no one will show up consistently. I sit at home and write songs, record demos, setup auditions and....nothing. I've tried out almost a dozen drummers in the past 6 months, any that are interested just flake and never show up again. Can't get any guitarists without a drummer locked down. I started putting up ads to find a band to join, just so I can play regularly, nothing. I've had a couple people outside the situation pose to me that maybe I'm intimidating people with being too organized and motivated, but that makes it sound like I'm too good for other musicians and I'm definitely not.

Maybe I need to change my deodorant brand.

you live in Salinas, CA right? I have lived there before. I jammed with some rock musicians like only one time when I lived there. Do you speak Spanish? If music were super important to me and I did not like Tejano Music, I would prolly move, that may be the issue there since you are pretty good at heavy rock

Yep, It's totally the location, but I don't have enough financial freedom to justify moving someplace better for playing live music. Right now I'm the sole earner in the house, my wife isn't working until our baby is weaned, we have a mortgage. I've been willing to drive to Santa Cruz, San Jose or San Francisco to start or join a band, but can't seem to find anyone. I have noticed lately that all the dudes who want a bassist for a doom or sludge band say things like "we don't anyone old, like over 25"...yikes lol. I've put up ads looking for people to start something or bands to join on the SF Craigslist, no luck so far. The wife and I almost moved to the NOVA/MD/WV area 4 or 5 years ago, but she didn't get the job she was interviewing for. Now I talk to a ton of people around those parts who are constantly telling me if I was closer they'd totally start a band with me. I get that a lot from the east coast doombros lol.

I've been trying to get more freelance recording and mixing work. If I can work up to earning enough to pay bills doing that or even that plus some part time work, I know my wife would be down to move. She's pretty easy going and supportive, but I'm not quite in that position right now, at all.

everdrone · August 28, 2014, 05:10:59 PM

cool brutha, that makes sense

Corey Y · August 28, 2014, 05:12:32 PM

Believe me, I want to move. Salinas is a shit hole, in several ways. We're shooting for selling our house by the time the kid is 5 at the latest, if even remotely possible.

everdrone · August 28, 2014, 05:27:36 PM

I lived in the getto there in Salinas (NOT impressed) where there are groups of adults gathering in numbers in the daytime, and the migrating farmworkers raise hell at night. they had prison breakouts and I had to stay indoors, and the houses have bars on the windows. cars with the thumper sound systems. that was in 2001, and there was not even a bookstore in that city really!

last year I lived in San Antonio, not many musicians and live music venues there either, but gotta make the best of whats around. maybe cast your net a bit wider and consider other genres in addition to heavy rock. I dig blues and maybe some types of Indie, and cover bands are a good standby. not sure that there are that many gigging opportunities for any bands in Salinas though except for young bands at high school parties maybe the junior college there, only 150,000 people in Salinas and it is farmworker capital steinbeck territory...

ya I would wanna play in santa cruz or monterey too but would not want the 40 minute commute

the craigslist Salinas ads look abismal: http://salina.craigslist.org/search/muc?query=+

austin ads are just tons of musicians: http://austin.craigslist.org/muc/

come to Austin dude!