the hot pup thread

[dunwichamps]

I love the pushed amp high gain tone. Fuck preamp distortion.

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turning the gain knob up is preamp distortion.. slamming the front end with a hot pickup or with a lot of clean boost is also preamp distortion..

Yes, it is, but you get the real balls when your master is cranked, and the preamp is at 11oclock or noon, using a pedal. It's driving the powertubes more than the pre.

depends on a few other factors in the amp design to know where and when you will clip. For example if you have a stage which can go into cutoff very easily then it will clip before a center biased stage will. If the phase inverter is biased very cold then you get more phase inverter and pre distortion earlier. If your input stages are very sensitive then there is not a lot of headroom they can work with before clipping even if you crank the master esp when driven hard by a pedal.

This is all fine and good(responding to all of the above messages), it just depends on what type of tone one wants. I want more or less the same tone at no earplug volume levels that I get at practice volume levels. I get some power tube distortion at practice but I don't need it for the sound I go for, it's just icing on the cake when it happens. Right now I actually hear more speaker distortion(which sounds a bit too Orange in my opinion) than anything when cranked but that will change after I swap speakers.

when most people speak of power tube distortion usually they mean phase inverter distortion, it takes a huge signal swing to drive an output tube into clipping and often the phase inverters in amps cannot drive sufficient signal into the power tubes to get it. Due to grid leak load on the phase inverter say in a 4 output tube amp, the phase inverter cannot reach sufficient peak amplitude to clip the output tube. You might get some power tube clipping when you just crank the pisser into maximum output but unless thats happening other things are going to clip well before the power tubes do

[VOLVO)))]

I lied, Suffocation has shit tone, but rules all day.

[bitter]

I want more or less the same tone at no earplug volume levels that I get at practice volume levels.

I wish I had a cam to make vids. Maybe I'll grab something next time I hit up best buy or something. When it comes to gain, especially at more reasonable volumes, a boost can do a lot. I love the sound of turning my TS on after I've switched to the hi gain channel. The moment the effect comes on it sounds like a jets afterburner. Whoosh.

[dunwichamps]

hmm getting the same tone at different volume levels not so easy, consider fletcher-munson curve will affect how your perceive the sound in general

[bitter]

Yeah its all perceived. there will always be little things hidden but you cant get fairly close. Having a lot of gain helps blur the edges a bit, especially with transparency and eq changes.

[Corey Y]

I have a Warpig in my Les Paul Custom and it sounds great. My buddy Mat, who plays rhythm guitar in Cold Mourning, uses Invaders in all his guitars and it really makes his sound. When he bought his last guitar he used the stock bridge pickup for a while and it didn't sound nearly as thick and massive as his guitar tone usually does. Add the Invader, instantly got there. Not saying that pickup is a magic bullet for great tone, just a key component to HIS tone and it's definitely about high output and a really thick sound. I used a Dimarzio Model P in my Precision bass and it's hotter than my active basses, also really makes the tone for that instrument. Pushing the front end of an amp does sound good, to my ear. There's certainly something to be said for cranking a tube amp up louder and running the power section harder than the front end, but there's no reason you can't do both. It's just a balancing act, you get different advantages and disadvantages from both approaches and it's not on or off, it's always a mix that can usually be balanced.

[dunwichamps]

when the V gets in i will get a chance to try pig90s

[bitter]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a decade ago it seemed like the invader was a really popular model for the exact reasons Corey mentioned. Not so much today though?

[Corey Y]

Yeah, there's really no accounting for what goes in or out of popular favor or why. Not to mention hype (or lack of) usually comes down to a vocal minority of musicians and doesn't necessarily equate to how many people are actually buying any particular type of gear. I guess it just depends if you want a pickup that's versatile or an "always on" sort of tone. I prefer the former, personally. Between different instruments, their volume and tone knobs, pedals, amps and cabs there's enough versatility for my taste to have no problem with a "one trick pony" pickup. I approach it the same way I do wood working. It's easier to take away than to add on. Evidenced by the number of fuzz pedal demos where people roll back their volume knob and turn it into an OD. You could get the same effect a lot of different ways with more or less gear, comes down to taste (or necessity).

Stock Internet Answer: "It depends/Whatever works for you/Try it out yourself/Your mileage may vary/IMHO, etc. and so forth"

[liquidsmoke]

when most people speak of power tube distortion usually they mean phase inverter distortion, it takes a huge signal swing to drive an output tube into clipping and often the phase inverters in amps cannot drive sufficient signal into the power tubes to get it. Due to grid leak load on the phase inverter say in a 4 output tube amp, the phase inverter cannot reach sufficient peak amplitude to clip the output tube. You might get some power tube clipping when you just crank the pisser into maximum output but unless thats happening other things are going to clip well before the power tubes do

Thank you for the clarification. I'll try to think of it as post pre-amp distortion from now on, assuming that is technically correct.

[dunwichamps]

when most people speak of power tube distortion usually they mean phase inverter distortion, it takes a huge signal swing to drive an output tube into clipping and often the phase inverters in amps cannot drive sufficient signal into the power tubes to get it. Due to grid leak load on the phase inverter say in a 4 output tube amp, the phase inverter cannot reach sufficient peak amplitude to clip the output tube. You might get some power tube clipping when you just crank the pisser into maximum output but unless thats happening other things are going to clip well before the power tubes do

Thank you for the clarification. I'll try to think of it as post pre-amp distortion from now on, assuming that is technically correct.

yea phase inverter clipping would occur, but honestly whatever i might call it if you like it, then doom on. I think when you clip the PI the clipping has a certain growl that is great sounding.

[liquidsmoke]

I don't think you get it. I PLAY "heavy metal," when not playing doom. Death/thrash/black, etc. I'm not knocking the tone, I'm saying you have to have OUTSTANDING tone for me to notice it, and the same thin bullshit active pickup oversaturated gain garbage isn't that.

-snipped-

You must realize, shitty tone follows shitty bands.

Ah. See you said generic when you meant shitty. That led me astray.

That last song you posted did have the worst tone of the 4 but I don't think it's that bad, although the song sounds like metalcore near a marsh pond and cracked me up.

The genre-Nazi in me found this perplexing- "I PLAY "heavy metal," when not playing doom." but I think I know what you meant.


A buddy of mine I've been talking to this week who is into metal of various types had some very harsh things to say about some of the high gain pups I asked him about. He's more tolerant of fizzy tone than many of you but some of what he has said is right in line with what I'm reading here.

[liquidsmoke]

I lied, Suffocation has shit tone, but rules all day.

I haven't heard them in years but based on this song I can say that this is not the tone I go for however if I was playing death metal I might find it more appropriate.

[liquidsmoke]

hmm getting the same tone at different volume levels not so easy, consider fletcher-munson curve will affect how your perceive the sound in general

I agree. I sometimes turn the treble up when playing at low volume levels but otherwise if I ignore the speaker distortion I'm currently getting(which I have a fix for) I've been pleased with my Laney at high and low volumes.

[dunwichamps]

hmm getting the same tone at different volume levels not so easy, consider fletcher-munson curve will affect how your perceive the sound in general

I agree. I sometimes turn the treble up when playing at low volume levels but otherwise if I ignore the speaker distortion I'm currently getting(which I have a fix for) I've been pleased with my Laney at high and low volumes.

time for some beefer speakers then.

[liquidsmoke]

I have a Warpig in my Les Paul Custom and it sounds great. My buddy Mat, who plays rhythm guitar in Cold Mourning, uses Invaders in all his guitars and it really makes his sound. When he bought his last guitar he used the stock bridge pickup for a while and it didn't sound nearly as thick and massive as his guitar tone usually does. Add the Invader, instantly got there. Not saying that pickup is a magic bullet for great tone, just a key component to HIS tone and it's definitely about high output and a really thick sound. I used a Dimarzio Model P in my Precision bass and it's hotter than my active basses, also really makes the tone for that instrument. Pushing the front end of an amp does sound good, to my ear. There's certainly something to be said for cranking a tube amp up louder and running the power section harder than the front end, but there's no reason you can't do both. It's just a balancing act, you get different advantages and disadvantages from both approaches and it's not on or off, it's always a mix that can usually be balanced.

I need to read more about the Warpigs. The Cold Mourning I've heard had good tone so that's +1 for Invaders.

[liquidsmoke]

hmm getting the same tone at different volume levels not so easy, consider fletcher-munson curve will affect how your perceive the sound in general

I agree. I sometimes turn the treble up when playing at low volume levels but otherwise if I ignore the speaker distortion I'm currently getting(which I have a fix for) I've been pleased with my Laney at high and low volumes.

time for some beefer speakers then.

Yes. I have brand new Swamp Thangs sitting in their boxes waiting for me to install. I need to do that soon. I should be doing that now instead of posting on here 

[liquidsmoke]

Yeah, there's really no accounting for what goes in or out of popular favor or why. Not to mention hype (or lack of) usually comes down to a vocal minority of musicians and doesn't necessarily equate to how many people are actually buying any particular type of gear. I guess it just depends if you want a pickup that's versatile or an "always on" sort of tone. I prefer the former, personally. Between different instruments, their volume and tone knobs, pedals, amps and cabs there's enough versatility for my taste to have no problem with a "one trick pony" pickup. I approach it the same way I do wood working. It's easier to take away than to add on. Evidenced by the number of fuzz pedal demos where people roll back their volume knob and turn it into an OD. You could get the same effect a lot of different ways with more or less gear, comes down to taste (or necessity).

Stock Internet Answer: "It depends/Whatever works for you/Try it out yourself/Your mileage may vary/IMHO, etc. and so forth"

Good points. "Always on" would work for me for now so long as I get the "on" sound I want. I do have an SG in standard E with stock Gibson pups for other sounds.

At some point I will have to try it out for myself as usual but generally the more research I do the better luck I have with that last final step. If only there was a local music store that had my exact half stack and 10 or 20 replicas of my guitar each with different pickups. Most of the time I pay very little attention to all of this stuff. I prefer to get where I want to be and then just play. Once I get there(and I'm close) I might be good to go for a long time.

[liquidsmoke]

This was remastered a bit too hot but I dig this tone

This too

also killer, I think John uses a Ratt

[mortlock]

im thinking of replacing my stock bridge j pup with a bartolini..i have a 72 fender telecaster bass pup in the neck position..any thoughts..pros/cons??