The recording/mixing/mastering techniques thread

JemDooM · April 02, 2013, 03:42:32 PM

I can't seem to find a thread for this, apologies if there already is one, iv been doing a lot of reading and pricing up over the last year and getting closer to a stage where I'll be doing a lot of recording, iv been planning to upgrade my presonus audiobox 22VSL to the firestudio project, studio one software to studio one pro and getting some decent mics, sm57's, an sm58, an AKG D112, a good condenser mic, and a dedicated laptop to start with. We've looked at going to various local studios but the idea of being able to invest in good gear and have the ability to record whenever we want is just as appealing for different reasons, I love the idea of learning and getting better over time and the satisfaction of having completely made my own music from start to finish though I realise my results wouldn't be as good as from a studio I think I'd be more fulfilled..

Post your recording/mixing/mastering questions, thoughts, answers and recordings for advice here, I won't post any of mine just yet as so far they're with poor/two mics in terrible rooms so I happen to know they are bad!

What's on my mind right now is:

Can anyone recommend a cheaper good alternative to the D112?

What's your thoughts on micing a cab up with more than one mic?

Iv read so many different opinions on how best to mic up a kit (un necessarily over micing etc) what's your thoughts based on your own experience?

Also lately I'm reading a lot on the recording space, what makes a good/bad recording room, if youve been faced with a bad room what have you done to improve it temporarily?

da_qtip · April 02, 2013, 05:21:10 PM

Do you actually mean the D12 or did you mean the D112? The D112 is about half the cost of a D12 VR, not sure how much originals go for.

I usually mic my cab with 2 mics on different speakers. All my speakers sound different so I feel it gives a more accurate sound as if you were in the room with it. Watch out for any phase issues. If you don't like it you can always just use the one track.

I prefer to have everything close miced with overheads, lately an X/Y setup. I like being able to control each drum.

For recording spaces, a good sounding room is a room that sounds good. No flutter echo, nice sounding decay. Higher ceilings are generally better for tracking drums. Improving the room really depends on what's wrong with it. Too dead, too live, etc.

Chovie D · April 02, 2013, 05:37:51 PM

"What's your thoughts on micing a cab up with more than one mic?"

-for guitar? Ive gotten good tones with an sm57 right up on the grill. ribbon mic about 6 inches back.
the ribbon adds noticeable warmth and depth to the 57. you can get by without it tho.

I recently tried micing a drum kit with one mic, like they did for led zep 2 and was amazed at the results. kit sounded great, open, and evenly mixed...except (and this i a pretyt big except) the rack toms were overblown. You are supposed ot use a LDC over the kick pointed at the snare..i only had a SDC in an LDC capsule.

looking at the picture tho, I see my problem...my drummer had two rack toms right over the kick. Bonham juts has the one way off to the side. I recommend giving this a try tho...

jibberish · April 02, 2013, 06:07:02 PM

chovie, I showed the zep 1 mic pic to my son , who is the drummer for his band. AAAANNNNND he coincidentally snagged an RD1. I will get him a focusrite interface so his nice mic stays nice sounding for his bday later in april. he is stoked to work with 1 mic.

I am obligated to get the ribbon since he got the LDC. we are a team and between us, we are getting some srs gear together

next up :used valve kings...

JemDooM · April 02, 2013, 06:18:23 PM

Thanks qtip I hadn't realised there was another apart from the original (which goes for around £400-700 btw) and the reissue! The d112 is still quite expensive for starting out so I'd still consider something more affordable with a good recommendation, but that already atleast halves the cost so great!

Iv read some good stuff about recording the kit with just two overheads but I can imagine it'd be really nice to mic the kick drum properly, especially to have it in the mixing stage...

Chovie D · April 02, 2013, 06:42:12 PM

overheads for drums usually just give me cymbal blast overload...thats one of the reasons I was so excited by this one mic technique.
I was worried Id need to be able to adjust bass and snare individually but both sounded just about right.

I am far from an expert or even knowledgeable about recording, i shouldve mentioned that.

Jibb, what is an RD1?

I bought a cheap chinese made ribbon mic. MXL. It arrived broken , apparently alot of em do as they are quite delicate and the ribbon gets torn during shipping. I bitched about this on the tape op forum..and the dude from Shiny Box mics messaged me, fixed the thing for free and sent it back to me WITH a cheap artdesign pre. still some good people out there in this world.

da_qtip · April 02, 2013, 08:10:18 PM

From what I've read, the D12 VR sounds more like the D112 than the D12. I think the cheapest kick mic who's name I see come up often is the Sennheiser e602. Never used it myself though. At home I have a cheap Samson QKick that sounds pretty decent. It came in a drum mic set so I don't know how much it is or if you can buy it separate. It should be cheaper than the e602.

Look up the Recorderman setup. It's 2 overheads plus kick. You could toss a snare mic on if you wanted to as well.

For the whole single micing thing, I've noticed that that's when the mic and room really come into play. I've used a cheap pencil condenser in my jam room at home and it sounded dull and lifeless. I've also used a U48 in a really nice room and it sounded amazing.

jibberish · April 02, 2013, 08:21:15 PM

arrr. the rode NT1 LDC. mnemonic failure once again, sorry 'bout that

so I'm going to get my main man the focusrite 2i4. it has the focusrite pre's, +48v phantom for that mic. low latency thru-put.
seems like the most bang for $200. the higher models just have more features or more thru-put (firewire of course, but I don't want to dick with a firewire card even tho I have a pile of them<-remember, if you want 8 simultaneous ins, you need firewire=dedicated, non-interruptable , sweet bandwidth data convention. usb is interrupt driven. to say it has adequate bandwidth doesn't tell the whole story. you can get away with a couple channels ok, but take too much bandwidth and you get interrupted=totally unacceptable. I can even feel my usb keyboard lags a hair once in a while vs direct MB connection and dedicated kybd processing)

Anyway, he shelled out big for a w/e 200 series taylor acoustic and that mic. I just need to sew up the loose ends for him.
he has a good game pc and the noise making stuff. needs to get the DAW and interfacing square

btw, as of right now I am a HUGE taylor fan lol.

jibberish · April 02, 2013, 08:28:22 PM

the blue ball was supposed to be a nice kick mic. remember when they were $50 and everyone grabbed one(except me, I r a retard)

also, have you auditioned the sure kick mics. like the one from the better series?
i'm kind of asking too since some day a kick mic gets added to the pile, but first more 57's and that ribbon so not happening real soon unless the deal on the one I should be watching for happens

da_qtip · April 02, 2013, 10:31:09 PM

^If that question was for me, I don't think I've ever used a Shure Kick mic myself. I think I assisted on a session where someone brought one but I can't remember how it turned out. And by better do you mean beta? From what I remember hearing in a kick mic shootout video the Beta 52 had more attack but less boom. Don't quote me on that.

I think the only (dynamic) mics I've used on kick are the QKick, D112, MD421 and the RE20.

Discö Rice · April 02, 2013, 10:41:05 PM

Audix D6.

clockwork green · April 02, 2013, 11:00:57 PM

What's a reasonable mic for a 15" bass cab? I'm also interested sub $500 ribbon for guitars and possibly vocals. I'm just starting to get into it but superior drummer is really impressive. The midi tracks are really good and usable and they've got a ton of midi packs. I'm still figuring out how to work with really specific drums where I can't just add or subtract a few things to get what I want. I don't play drums and until I do it's a hell of an option.

Discö Rice · April 02, 2013, 11:01:31 PM

^^^They run about $200 U.S. (the D6, that is)

chille01 · April 03, 2013, 12:12:38 AM

I like the Shure Beta52A for kick, but that might just be what I'm used to. To me it has a rounder, more old school sound than the AKG, which sounded more clicky and modern metal to my ear. Depends on what you're going for and how you use it though.

jibberish · April 03, 2013, 06:00:26 AM

what a learning thread. nice.
I heard some nice things about the sure kicks, so that's why I ws asking. thx all

I have been reading about ribbons. basically it seems like just stay with royer. i'm looking at the one that is about $350.(havig a hard time with model numbers in the brain this week) a lot of people use it. I read mix magazine and they show what FOH BOH sound guys are using on tours of bands, what engineers use for recording sessions in the studios and lots of gear reviews and mfr ads.

royer started the ribbon thing and keep developing.

also ribbons are different animals, you can destroy one by putting it close to a speaker or giving it phantom voltage. they absolutely cannot take moving air. stick with condensers for close cab mic'ing

they also pick up equally from in front or behind so they do neat stuff back in the room ambience or mess you up heh.

jibberish · April 03, 2013, 06:09:41 AM

this is the mix magazine website. might be worth a subscription. you see a lot of setups over the years and it is nothing but sound setups and techniques.

http://mixonline.com/

JemDooM · April 03, 2013, 06:48:18 AM

Reading great things about the shure beta 52a thanks for the recommendation!

That's a great site jibbs its a good price too for what you get considering I spent £7 on a magazine yesterday which only had one decent article in it!

Iv started a scrap book with magazine cuttings, print offs and notes, serious times

Can anyone advise me on buying monitor speakers?

Also as for the cab multi micing thing, you can mic based on type of mic and distance yeah, but also mic up with different angles to the cab for different sounds, I'm looking forward to experimenting and comparing the tracks...

Any other studio one users?

b00gie van · April 03, 2013, 11:24:57 AM

The Beta 52 sounds sweet on bass cabs as well as kick drums.

Discö Rice · April 03, 2013, 12:21:33 PM

Edit: Based on that test, I think the Beta 52 edges out over the D6. I've also heard the D6 sound better than that. Gonna look for more.

lordfinesse · April 03, 2013, 02:35:55 PM

To the OP.. Have you looked on the TapeOp forum? Lots of good info there, although if you ask questions be prepared for "it depends" to be the stock answer from most. Nice folks there though.

Personally I like all of these^ mics at different times. If I could only have one for the rest of my life, it'd be the 52. I rarely use my D6 but once in a while it's perfect. The D112 is quite popular, but I've never cared much for it on kick drums.. personal taste I guess. I really think the sounds given from any one of those mics will be decent.. not so much better or worse than another one, just different.

Chovie D · April 03, 2013, 04:24:49 PM

a quarter inch difference in mic placement probably makes way more difference than mic brand

chille01 · April 03, 2013, 10:59:37 PM

My favorite mic technique for loud guitar cabs is a 57 and MD421, both on close up on the same cone. It's not some big trick I'm letting you in on mind you... pretty standard for rock guitar actually. Only problem is those MD421 mics are pricey, so if I'm recording myself I just rent them for the day. They make great all around mics though, so if I was serious I'd have at least 3 of them. They sound great on toms.

Another trick I like for toms is using an XLR Y cable, with the phase reversed on one side. One mic on the top, one on the bottom, and both into a y-cable so they only occupy a single track. Yeah, you can't mix them separately after the fact, but I've never needed to. Just adjust the placement to get the sound you want to disk.

This reminds me, I gotta go post our most recent recording in the recent recordings thread. Drums were tracked in our jam room by a pro I know, then we overdubbed guitars and vocals with me doing the tracking, and I did the mix. Pro buddy did a quick at home master on it. I think it turned out pretty solid sounding.

Drama · April 04, 2013, 07:17:22 AM

Quote from: JemDooM on April 03, 2013, 06:48:18 AM

Can anyone advise me on buying monitor speakers?

What's your budget?

Also, it cannot be overstated enough, If it's something you want to get seriously into it would be of greater benefit to spend more on room treatment and less on monitors than to blow a ton on monitors and use them in an untreated room. As was earlier stated, what your room needs is really dependant on the room itself.

Good thread too, I've been a mix/mastering engineer professionally for the last 15 years and a producer for the last 10, looking forward to seeing where this thread goes.

da_qtip · April 04, 2013, 02:30:24 PM

Quote from: chille01 on April 03, 2013, 10:59:37 PM

Another trick I like for toms is using an XLR Y cable, with the phase reversed on one side. One mic on the top, one on the bottom, and both into a y-cable so they only occupy a single track. Yeah, you can't mix them separately after the fact, but I've never needed to. Just adjust the placement to get the sound you want to disk.

I've done this for snare before, but I tend to like the bottom mic quieter. Does anyone have schematics or anything to build an inline pad that I could use for this sort of thing? Or have recommendations for buying one?

Lumpy · April 04, 2013, 04:39:53 PM

Quote from: JemDooM on April 03, 2013, 06:48:18 AM
Can anyone advise me on buying monitor speakers?

I like my Yamaha HS-50 with the Yamaha HS-10 subwoofer (self-powered monitors). I turn the subwoofer off as a test sometimes, to make sure that the mix won't sound bass-less on a system with no subwoofer. The HS-50 reveal a lot of detail, and it's taking me some time to figure out what I hear on my monitors versus the home stereo. There's a huge jump in price between good mid-level monitors, and the high end pro monitors. You'll probably be buying mid-level (price) speakers. The Yamahas I have are good, for that price-point. It sounds weird but you don't want speakers that sound 'good' (like Rockits) you want speakers that are accurate and reveal the details in your mix, whether it sounds good or not. Monitors are less forgiving than your stereo speakers.

As far as acoustical room treatment, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". For one thing, if you don't mix loud (I don't) then room treatment is less crucial IMO. Like pro audio guys insisting that "you can't do that!" with your PA (whereas in the real world, people are doing "that" every day and are perfectly happy) just get to work using the resources you have. Obviously, your first purchase will be monitors (not room treatment) so buy the best monitors you can afford. If you want to make your own acoustic room treatment you can find tutorials for making bass traps and room treatment on line, and step by step instructions on Youtube.