The trials and tribulations of choosing PA-speakers

Pundan · July 24, 2011, 12:09:37 AM

I have a problem, I can't hear myself singing while we're rehearsing. The singing just disappears with all the bass/drums and guitar going on. We play heavy and loud so it isn't a coincidence. Today we have an oldasfuck PA amp, it's an old Riley and of the top of my head I believe it's a PCX6400ME (think it's called something like that, and btw what happened to Riley? Used to see their stuff in all music shops today I can't find it on the internet). And along with the amp we have two Laney 1x15 PA speakers, rated 150W, 8Ohm each.

I believe some part of this is also me being a crappy singer but if I scream my loudest I can hear the scream, but not defined or good in any way, and it's kinda low in volume as well.

The previous band who used this setup was Black metal band The Legion, but they said they had to turn the volume down a little on their guitar and bass amps to make room for it, they also used to trigger drums with it.

Anyway, I'm basically crap at this stuff. What should I look for, more wattage? I have checked http://www.thomann.de/se/peavey_pv_115.htm out and in my world this seems to be twice as powerful and not to expensive either. So what do you guys recommend to look for? Is maybe a monitor something I should look for instead?

Lumpy · July 24, 2011, 02:38:45 AM

Have you tried getting your existing speakers up in the air, about head-high? Getting some separation between the guitar amps and vocal PA can really help.

justJon · July 24, 2011, 02:41:26 AM

It may be a matter of placement. If it's just so you can her yourself at rehearsals, get that shit as close to in-your-face as you possibly can. It's convenient to stick 'em in the corners of the room, or whatever, but yeah, competing w/guitars/bass/drums, etc, it gets lost in the muddle. We've found that,for hearing yourself, a little monitor staring you in the face does wonders. barring that, get them up to ear level and pointed diectly at you. See if it helps.

Edit:
Great minds think alike, Lumpy.

chille01 · July 24, 2011, 03:14:38 PM

150 watts isn't a lot for a PA if you want to really be able to hear yourself. It should be able to get you into "I can kinda hear it - good enough for jamming" range, but it will probably never be crystal clear and strong. For that, you're probably looking in the 300-600 watt range. You can get powered PA speakers that are about 300 watts for around $500 here in Canada. Not sure what the price would be where you are.

The other thing to keep in mind is feedback. Even if you do get more powerful speakers, if you open up four mics right in front of them in a little concrete bunker jam room, you're not going to be able to max out that wattage. You'll have screaming feedback. This is where the placement of the speakers (as covered above) helps. Using them as floor monitors directly behind the mics is good. If the mics are pointed into the speakers, you're going to have issues.

Finally, a graphic EQ and someone who knows how to set it can help a lot in getting the most volume you can out of your rig. The EQ is cheap, but if you use it wrong (ie; any sort of pretty "smile" configuration), it will just make things worse. The aim is to have it as flat as possible, and only pull down the frequencies that are feeding back. You're just using it for feedback control, so you shouldn't be boosting anything. Do any tone shaping EQ on the mixer. The graphic is just for pulling out the rings. And you shouldn't be pulling out too MANY frequencies, or all you're really doing is pulling the master volume down. So you need someone with an ear who can do all that, if you can't.

Lumpy · July 24, 2011, 05:44:27 PM

Good tip on using EQ to reduce feedback.

Peavey speakers linked in the first post seem fine, maybe even a little more than what you might need (400 watts program/800 peak). What kind of amp is driving the speakers you have now (power specs). You might need a new amp first, rather than new speakers first. Maybe both.

Pundan · July 25, 2011, 12:16:05 AM

Hey, great tips you guys. The speakers today are in head height already, but in the other side of the room (it's not that far though). I'm still thinking about those Peavey speakers, even though they might be a little bit over-powered I bet they come in handy in the future somehow

. The PA-amp is 400W I believe, or 300-350 something.

I've also noticed the feedback problem, if you got the speakers pointed towards the mic it fucks up. Our main problem is that we have the speakers in front of the mic not behind, and we're kind of limited when it comes to space as well.

I've also thought about the monitor thing, but first priority is to get the whole band hear what I sing + myself. Cash isn't really the issue (for once), so if these speakers won't do the trick we'll buy a new PA amp and sell the old ones

I'll have to make up my mind: Monitor, new speakers or new PA amp?

chille01 · July 25, 2011, 01:15:13 AM

No reason the whole band can't hear you with monitors. Set up in a circle, have one wedge pointed to one side, the other one pointed the other way. They'll be on the floor in the middle of the circle, so behind the mics.

Pundan · July 25, 2011, 02:59:56 AM

Quote from: chille01 on July 25, 2011, 01:15:13 AM
No reason the whole band can't hear you with monitors. Set up in a circle, have one wedge pointed to one side, the other one pointed the other way. They'll be on the floor in the middle of the circle, so behind the mics.

Hey, I think I know what you're saying. Today our setup looks like this (which is crap I know):

Basically we're on a limited space, we have tried to put one speaker in one corner and the other one in the opposite, pointing at the center of the room. But since then we've moved out some old equipment and so forth to make more room.

When we bought the PA the dude told us: Be aware of that the PA amp is more powerful than the speakers so don't push it too much. He said they ran it with drum triggers and vocals butr they had to turn down the guitars and bass to be able to hear it. It was pretty OK until our bass player went and bought a 400W tube amp, so therefore I believe the problem is in the wattage as of now since the old speakers are 150Ws and we play on such heavy watt equipment.

This is me and the bass players setup:
Marshall 400W tube bass amp + 2x15"
Matamp GT1 100W tube amp + 4x12"

I was thinking of trying to put one speaker near the guitar (in that corner of the room) and use the two old ones as monitors (they're angled so they should work fine for this use) and position them in front of the drum set.