Playing off a generator

cat shepard · December 12, 2011, 11:51:33 AM

I will tell them at work that stoned rock said i don't have to ground spike anymore. They will get mad and say what the fuck are you talking about and make me ground it anyways.

RAGER · December 12, 2011, 11:57:40 AM

To you and everyone else here. If it makes ya feel safer to put a piece of re-bar in the ground, so be it. But it may as well be a twinkie for all the good it's doing.

jibberish · December 12, 2011, 12:13:51 PM

^heh. ya u got it.

look people, i dont want to come off all intense,but this is important to know since band people are at risk of getting zapped at times. i think there is just a confusion issue here, which we will hash out by the end of the day.

i just thought of another big difference between the power grid and a generator.
the power grid is actually 3-phase. 3-phase is crazy theory compared to single phase generator juice.
3-phase also requires certain grounding precautions, which i agree with hemi on.

but single phase ac could be made from a battery and a chopper, and there is no center 3-phase leg/point and hence no center "ground" point. you get a straight sinusoidal voltage, and actually now we are sort of having an ac battery happening. does this make sense?

also the riskiest thing you could do with a generator is put a ground spike in the dirt from the generator ground and then another from your gear. why would you want to make the dirt part of an open circuit when it was so safely isolated to start with. now if you grab the hot in bare feet, the dirt completes the ground fault through you

jibberish · December 12, 2011, 12:17:07 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on December 12, 2011, 10:57:10 AM
You're not grounding for a reference, you are grounding for safety. You can tie all your commons or neutral's together, great for no hum, but if you don't have a path to the ground you are standing on, the possibilty for a lethal potential difference is there.

Current goes to ground, if you're generator is insulated from ground, current will seek the path of least resistance, which could be the person touching his guitar, or holding a mic stand.

It doesn't matter whether the power is generated in a power station miles away, and stepped down via an electric substation, or created with a small engine powered alternator beside you, it obeys the same laws.

hemi, bro, you are totally wrong. an isolated supply has a path of infinite resistance wrt the dirt. you are not part of the isolated circuit touching a mike standing on the dirt. there is no path of least resistance since there IS NO PATH unless you grab both wires and make a circuit. you can grab a hot wire and if you are insulated, nothing happens. this is the generator scenario. nothing goes to the dirt wrt the generator as it is in no way connected to the dirt. the generator has absolutely no relation to the power grid. none. there is no current going to the dirt at all.

RAGER · December 12, 2011, 12:35:08 PM

What we should really be discussing is length and gauge of extension cords so you don't get voltage drop and current issues. that's when breakers trip.

Ayek · December 12, 2011, 01:01:22 PM

Quote from: RAGER on December 12, 2011, 11:45:44 AM
Wow this discussion took off. My computer has been fucked up so I couldn't chime in again.

First off let me say that I am an RV Technician for a living and have been for the past 15 years. Generators are in my daily work life. YOU DON'T NEED A GODDAMN GROUND SPIKE!!!!!!

Do you ever see RV's driving around with a ground spike?? No you don't and somehow those people are operating their appliances safely. They are protected by a GFCI circuit internally. The generator you will be using also is protected by a GFCI internally. VERY SIMPLE.

Unless you are using an extremely outdated generator you will not need a power conditioner. Any generator you RENT will be safe, updated, and maintained. IT'S THE LAW!!!.

The inverter generators especially will be able to handle up to about 30 amps all the way down to micro amps and voltages. Many of the new power managing equipment and refrigerators in RV's have sensitive circuit boards that don't like fluctuations and modified sine waves. These generators are made for this type of stuff.

On occasion I sell these stand alone generators and nowhere does it say to add a farking ground spike. Hopefully that clears it up

You failed to mention that in yer RVs all metal objects are equipotentially bonded, along with the generator, something which would be impractical for the situation being discussed. You do bond them, don't you?

RAGER · December 12, 2011, 01:31:29 PM

I failed to mention chassis grounding (equipotentially bonding)? No I didn't. I never intended to. We were talking about stand alone generators which i guess would be bonded right? I'm not sure what your point is.

Oh and I don't build RVs, I work on them. But the manufacturers connect all grounds to a common source as per ASE and RVIA

VOLVO))) · December 12, 2011, 02:14:08 PM

Isn't the gen on an RV grounded to the chassis of an RV?

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VOLVO))) · December 12, 2011, 02:19:22 PM

OSHA guidebook says the gen frame serves as ground. What if the generator is insulated from ground by rubber feet? Would a ground spike be required, then?

Id power condition anyways, don't give a fuck if it's overly cautious.

Im gonna spike it regardless.

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cat shepard · December 12, 2011, 02:23:31 PM

Yes. I seen a bitch get her lips fried sangin some gospel music and there was no spike. With a spike it don't happen. Argue all you want. I saw it happen. Can't change it. The ground is floating. You can do 3 phase power off of generators as well. Im saying that when I show up, I drive the spike and connect a wire to it from the gen. Takes less than 5 minutes and everything goes well and bitches don't be getting there lips fried.

RAGER · December 12, 2011, 02:38:14 PM

What ever guys. Do what you want. Not gonna argue this anymore. i know what I'm doing. i have to leave to go work on a 38 foot 5th wheel with a generator in it. I will be using power tools with no ground spike. hopefully I'll survive just like I have been for the last 15 years. Wish me luck. out

RacerX · December 12, 2011, 02:38:25 PM

QuoteIm saying that when I show up, I drive the spike and connect a wire to it from the gen. Takes less than 5 minutes and everything goes well and bitches don't be getting there lips fried.

Word.

Plus, Fried Bitch Lips would be an excellent song title/band name.

cat shepard · December 12, 2011, 02:42:03 PM

Quote from: RacerX on December 12, 2011, 02:38:25 PM
QuoteIm saying that when I show up, I drive the spike and connect a wire to it from the gen. Takes less than 5 minutes and everything goes well and bitches don't be getting there lips fried.

Word.

Plus, Fried Bitch Lips would be an excellent song title/band name.

I say song name, as it would work for any flavor really. As a band name? I don't know. What do they fucking sound like. Maybe butthole surfersish with more noise and could have a song called i ground my shit with twinkies.

Hemisaurus · December 12, 2011, 03:04:24 PM

OSHA say that the generator frames seves as ground IF certain requirements are made. I seem to recall the main part being that the chassis is bonded to circuit ground, and that the generator is less than a kilowatt or two, and that only hand tools and work-lights are being used on it. I also recall OSHA saying something like as lightning is unlikely to strike

BS - British Safety (unfortunate acronym I know) don't fart about and say ground it, so why bother figuring out if you can maybe get away with it, just ground it, and be done.

This discussion was referring to band equipment and PA, not hand tools, tube amplifiers not being the safest pieces of gear at the best of times, just ground it.

Metal and Beer · December 12, 2011, 03:09:49 PM

Funny how the manuals don't mention anything about having to drive a ground spike, you think they all forgot? You'd think they would mention that so, you know, customers don't get theysefs killed until they're dead and shit.

Hemisaurus · December 12, 2011, 03:18:48 PM

Really? Cummins has a course you go on, and a couple of manuals devoted to the topic. Maybe nowadays they think frame ground is good enough I suppose US standards are pretty sloppy when it comes to electricity.

Metal and Beer · December 12, 2011, 03:31:29 PM

I dunno man. RAGER's experience aligns with mine over decades and we're both still typing (perhaps to the board's detriment LOL). I've rented Hondas numerous times and read the manuals closely because I'm not really that into getting killed and haven't ever been instructed to drive a ground spike. I would have if instructed, since getting deaded would have ruined my day, see...

Everyone just do what they think is best and hopefully none of us get killed in the process, I'll leave it there

Hemisaurus · December 12, 2011, 03:38:55 PM

I am coming at it from an industrial, rather than a construction type frame, maybe we're more rigorous as we could be dealing with higher currents, I did find the OSHA BS

Quote
I. Generator Grounding Electrode Exemption (system grounding)
29 CFR 1926.404 (f)(3) Portable and vehicle-mounted generators - (i) Portable Generators. Under the following conditions the frame of portable generator need not be grounded and may serve as the grounding electrode" (NEC Article 250.34 2002 Edition). This reference is talking about a grounding electrode which is code language for a system ground or connection of an electrical system to the earth or our surroundings. In other words a ground rod is not required and in fact may actually create a hazard. The conditions are:

A) The generator supplies only cord and plug connected equipment (saws, drills, lights, etc.) through the receptacles mounted on the generator.

AND
B) The grounding pin of the receptacles is connected to the generator frame and the grounding conductors (3rd wire/equipment ground) of the portable equipment plugged into the generator is continuous to the generator frame.

RAGER · December 12, 2011, 08:08:23 PM

Oh my god. Somehow I survived today.

VOLVO))) · December 12, 2011, 08:10:22 PM

Would you guys stop being dicks for a quick minute and realize there's more than one way to skin a cat?

RAGER · December 12, 2011, 08:19:25 PM

It's also possible to over engineer the skinning of said cat.

VOLVO))) · December 12, 2011, 08:55:15 PM

Well, it's better than under-engineering.

I notoriously go more than the full nine, all the time, so, I'll spike it.

grimniggzy · December 12, 2011, 08:57:32 PM

Ayek · December 12, 2011, 11:59:02 PM

There's also more than one way of frying a cat, which is the concern here. Given the conditions and the equipment being used that we're talking about, there's higher chances of fault conditions than using double insulated power tools.

eyeprod · December 13, 2011, 12:18:08 AM

I'd say that some of you are just taking things personally and it's only marginally entertaining to read.

I tend to go by manuals and pro advice, myself. Then again, I'm a superstitious mofo and also do what makes me feel good. That being said, I don't know shit, but have played lots of times outside via generators and never have gotten so much as slightly shocked...knock on wood. Not sure if anything was ever "grounded" as per a spike in the ground, but who knows? Playing outside is fun, especially at the beach during a fool moon.