Drummers Only

Hemisaurus · January 03, 2012, 09:49:34 PM

Just curious.

justJon · January 03, 2012, 10:01:54 PM

I am a drummer. I can (and have) play(ed) to a click track, sequencer, etc, live and in the studio. I prefer not to. It feels and sounds more natural/organic to me to let the music breathe. When I, or others I've heard played w/a click, it sounded to my ear too mechanistic.

neighbor664 · January 03, 2012, 10:02:05 PM

If you answered no, can you really be considered a drummer yet? Seems to me that is the most basic fundamental of being able to play.

Hemisaurus · January 03, 2012, 10:04:40 PM

I know seasoned drummers that can't, hence the query

justJon · January 03, 2012, 10:07:58 PM

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:02:05 PM
If you answered no, can you really be considered a drummer yet? Seems to me that is the most basic fundamental of being able to play.

In all honesty, I would say playing with a click is a different skill from being able to keep a relatively steady beat. I understand why people would think it's the same thing, but it's not.

neighbor664 · January 03, 2012, 10:08:19 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on January 03, 2012, 10:04:40 PM
I know seasoned drummers that can't, hence the query

Do you mean RECORD with a click or simply to be able to play to a click, metronome or mechanical pulse of some sort?

Hemisaurus · January 03, 2012, 10:20:50 PM

In order to record with a click, don't you have to be able to play to a click? I guess I don't get the distinction.

neighbor664 · January 03, 2012, 10:32:56 PM

Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.

RAGER · January 03, 2012, 10:37:07 PM

I guess if I have to. I'm cornfused

For me that's not usually the recording process.

rayinreverse · January 03, 2012, 10:38:13 PM

I think a drummer should be able to. But not make rock records while doing so.unless thee are sequencers, etc.

Hemisaurus · January 03, 2012, 11:03:06 PM

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.

I dunno, there's a whole different mindset between setting a tempo, and following a tempo.

A good drummer can pull the music along sometimes better than a click, I think.

gatorsnot · January 03, 2012, 11:21:32 PM

Ideally you should be able to play(record) with a click and without. Nothing but good will come from practicing, mostly, with a metronome. And that goes for guitar players too.

neighbor664 · January 03, 2012, 11:30:25 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on January 03, 2012, 11:03:06 PM
Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.
I dunno, there's a whole different mindset between setting a tempo, and following a tempo.

A good drummer can pull the music along sometimes better than a click, I think.

What would the difference be then if instead of a click it was a bassist playing solid unyielding quarter notes?
That shouldn't be any harder or easier. You can either play in time to established pulse or you can't.
The people who can we call drummers. The rest are wannabes.
The tempo or pulse is the same weather coming from a click, played or implied. Time yields for no man!
It is not a drummers job to keep time as much as it is to be mindful of it.
Good drummers manipulate your perception of time.

Hemisaurus · January 03, 2012, 11:33:05 PM

As a bassplayer, I follow the drummer, I don't set the tempo, except when there is no drummer.

Quote from: gatorsnot on January 03, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
Ideally you should be able to play(record) with a click and without. Nothing but good will come from practicing, mostly, with a metronome. And that goes for guitar players too.

...and either way I haven't met a guitar player yet that can keep a tempo without drums.

zachoff · January 04, 2012, 12:06:06 AM

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.

My band's old drummer couldn't play to a click and he's the best I've ever been in a band with.

Discö Rice · January 04, 2012, 02:38:00 AM

Yes.

chille01 · January 04, 2012, 02:38:12 AM

I too have seen solid drummers lose it to a click. I think it is a mental thing, that any decent drummer could get over with a few hours of solo practice. The problem is that if they are not accustomed to it, a recording studio with 8 people staring at you and the dollars adding up with every minute is not the place to get used to it.

I agree that any drummer should be able to do it, but know a lot of drummers just aren't ACCUSTOMED to it. If a click is in your recording plans, make sure they practice alone ahead of time.

Corey Y · January 04, 2012, 02:46:13 AM

I don't play or own a kit anymore, but I could play to a click. That's how my teacher had me practice from day one. The best comment he gave me about it was that you should only hear the click when you're off beat.

clockwork green · January 04, 2012, 03:12:34 AM

Why should a drummer or anyone else need to play to a click track? Why should we assume that all good songs must not deviate from the original tempo? I believe music should breathe a bit and have fluctuations in tempo as a natural function of the song. The only issue is keeping everyone on the same page. Tempo fluctuations are just another form of dynamics.

Discö Rice · January 04, 2012, 03:22:50 AM

Clicks are useful for solo practice and playing to sequencers. Other than that, I don't really see the point.

chlorpromazine · January 04, 2012, 05:51:21 AM

Yeah, but I don't have to like it.

One big reason to do it is to be able to "punch in" drums on a recording.

In a band situation it tends to suck a lot of the subtle push and pull out of the equation. It is definitely a different animal than practicing by yourself with a metronome. Even then, it is hard to really groove to a click.

When a band practices together, the drummer isn't normally using a click and is setting his tempo internally. After getting the songs tight in that setting and trying to translate that to the studio, the click can turn into a foreign sound in the drummer's headphones. Once you're off the click as a whole band, it is hard to pull everything back together. Unless the engineer picks up on it and kills the click quickly, the take is doomed. That gets to be a lot of pressure. It usually goes easier if the drummer only has the click in his cans and/or if the band is not recording "live".

I've known some excellent drummers with skills far superior to mine that couldn't play to a click because their internal sense of time is so strong that they can't adapt to taking the beat from a click. In that case, they'll play "around" it. The reason that a bassist or guitarist can play to the click easily is that they're used to playing on top of an external beat provided by a drummer or drum machine.

If you want a drummer to record to a click, he needs to practice by himself with it and then slowly integrate it into a band setting where he's the only one hearing it. Everybody else takes their time from the drummer. After that, going into the studio with a click is like just another practice.

That being said, I really like to have a little sway of about 5 bpm either way in the tunes. They seem to "breathe" better that way, and you just don't get that when you record with a click.

moose23 · January 04, 2012, 09:06:29 AM

Quote from: clockwork green on January 04, 2012, 03:12:34 AM
Why should a drummer or anyone else need to play to a click track? Why should we assume that all good songs must not deviate from the original tempo? I believe music should breathe a bit and have fluctuations in tempo as a natural function of the song. The only issue is keeping everyone on the same page. Tempo fluctuations are just another form of dynamics.

Have to agree with this. Also I read a good article (well two) from Jack Endino last week.

http://musicmachinery.com/2010/02/08/revisiting-the-click-track/

Kinda interesting that Keith Moon played to a click but then there's a really strong synth pattern in that particular song so he pretty much had to use one.

It's definitely worth practising with a click/metronome but not so much for playing unless you have sequenced parts imo..

Hemisaurus · January 04, 2012, 09:48:47 AM

s'funny how everyone knows a drummer who can't, but all the drummers on here say they can

I was thinking, if we were trading tunes or tracks around, and didn't start with the drums, but started with say the guitar and added the drums later, guitarists have to play to something so it would probably be a click.

neighbor664 · January 04, 2012, 10:26:14 AM

Judging from the replies from other folks the OP question has been perceived as:

Do you record with a click?

My response was not regarding the virtues of recording with a click. That is a whole other topic.
Great blog on that. http://musicmachinery.com/2010/02/08/revisiting-the-click-track

My response was to the idea of simply being able to play along to a click or a metronome.
Anyone who plays a musical instrument with any proficiency should be able to play in time to a mechanized pulse.

chlorpromazine · January 04, 2012, 10:29:02 AM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on January 04, 2012, 09:48:47 AM
s'funny how everyone knows a drummer who can't, but all the drummers on here say they can

I was thinking, if we were trading tunes or tracks around, and didn't start with the drums, but started with say the guitar and added the drums later, guitarists have to play to something so it would probably be a click.

I probably know more that aren't able to play with a click, but given some of the assessments of their abilities in this thread, why would a drummer that can't play with a click even want to respond? "Well I can't do that particular thing, but I'm still awesome." That's kind of tough to defend, and in that situation I wouldn't be proud of the fact that I couldn't do something that these others claim to be able to.

If someone sent me riffs, I'd play along with them enough to form an idea of what the drums need to be doing and where the transitions are, but I'd track it by myself. If a guitarist needed a click to keep it steady enough to send, do it. In my experience, guitarists will need it more than bassists will. Bass players tend to be better with playing time. Those are just generalizations, and I'm not speaking in absolutes here. It just depends on what they're looking for. Straight ahead metal without much groove to it lends itself well to playing with a click. Anything that has any amount of swing or shuffle doesn't starts losing feel when played to a click.