Do they make PCB printers?

Hemisaurus · August 12, 2012, 01:54:55 PM

So I'm reading that they now make cutters and 3D printers that you can stamp out panels and make parts using your PC. Does anyone know if they have something that can run off a PCB from your PC without doing all the photo-etching, exposure and acid bath crap you have to go through?

Does a laser cutter have the ability to be calibrated to etch a PCB?

James1214 · August 12, 2012, 02:01:12 PM

laser cutters available to the consumer the ones under like $5000 don't have the power to etch copper. also a CO2 laser has to run at a much higher power to cut copper. probably far less efficient then doing a simple photo etch.

James1214 · August 12, 2012, 02:07:56 PM

there is this too http://www.instructables.com/id/Converting-an-Inkjet-Printer-to-Print-PCBs/

doesn't eliminate all the steps but could make small scale production easier

Hemisaurus · August 13, 2012, 11:23:54 AM

Well I'm not going into production, it's just it would make some of my life easier, thanks I'll check it out.

VOLVO))) · August 13, 2012, 11:40:32 AM

Why not acid etch it?

Laserjet printer + some PCB. Print the invert of your tracks, iron on, etch, bam.

xayk · August 13, 2012, 11:55:30 AM

There was an interesting KickStarter for the MezzoMill: http://www.mezzomill.com/, which looked pretty swell, but both didn't get funded and was out of my hobbyist price range.

I haven't tried acid etching, as I've read horror stories in trying to get holes drilled afterwards going with a DIY rig. It's also been suggested to not drill and just design using SMD's, but baby steps.

jibberish · August 13, 2012, 02:04:54 PM

i should look into this some too.

smd is very tricky to do by hand. generally i am the only one in the building or one of only a couple that can hand tech smd components.
you need 3 things that are essential to working with smd:

1) a retardedly fine point soldering tip and a beefy station like a weller.
2) very fine sight. if you have any far sighted problems, you need a magnifier or some optical assistance.
[a good test is if you can read the state names on the lincoln memorial on the back of a new $5 bill]
3) a VERY steady hand

also make sure you have polarities correct on things like cap chips, pin1 on smd-ic's and know how to read the garble on the components.

tip: when you get a bag or tube of smd, label it and just keep the pieces in that container. this is so you dont have to read the garble on the components.

in electronics mfg houses they have automated pick-n-place machines which stick the smd components onto the board really quickly with little arms, then the whole shebang gets to surf the wave solderer. 50 gallons of molten solder is totally hypnotic watching it flow. the flux is also the temporary glue and the boards are dragged face down on a little conveyor through the wave solder pool. then you run your finished boards through the dishwasher to clean off the soldering remnants and leftover flux

Hemisaurus · August 13, 2012, 04:03:13 PM

Quote from: SunnO))) on August 13, 2012, 11:40:32 AM
Why not acid etch it?

Laserjet printer + some PCB. Print the invert of your tracks, iron on, etch, bam.

Yeah, thats no fun, hence me asking if a one step solution exists. It's like I have developed my own photos, but I'm a heck of a lot happier now digital photos exist.

James1214 · August 13, 2012, 05:59:15 PM

the link I gave eliminates the need to do a transfer. it prints the resist directly on the copper clad board. no need to do a transfer

VOLVO))) · August 13, 2012, 08:08:21 PM

Really? It's that big of a deal? Weird.

jibberish · August 14, 2012, 12:52:23 AM

Quote from: James1214 on August 12, 2012, 02:01:12 PM
laser cutters available to the consumer the ones under like $5000 don't have the power to etch copper. also a CO2 laser has to run at a much higher power to cut copper. probably far less efficient then doing a simple photo etch.

and that is just the beginning of the realistic logistics problems. once the laser gets through the copper which melts at w/e 4000 degrees. you have what? phenolic? epoxy? how thick is this trace you want to laser off? now there is a depth issue. bigtime laser cutters cut all the way through the stack of steel or leather or w/e. what about condensed spatters and vapors from pulse trimming? a clean edge can be cleaned. you need a clean surface , just with the copper removed, so now you have to clean the non-conductive surface of the cutting residues, and it will most likely look nasty, or at best , less than machine perfect.

I believ i saw trace kits before. stick on traces and donuts and then you w/e bake it to set the thing. maybe that might be an alternative for prototyping fairly simple single sided board ideas

Ryno · August 14, 2012, 02:10:41 AM

Quote from: jibberish on August 13, 2012, 02:04:54 PM
i should look into this some too.

smd is very tricky to do by hand. generally i am the only one in the building or one of only a couple that can hand tech smd components.
you need 3 things that are essential to working with smd:

1) a retardedly fine point soldering tip and a beefy station like a weller.
2) very fine sight. if you have any far sighted problems, you need a magnifier or some optical assistance.
[a good test is if you can read the state names on the lincoln memorial on the back of a new $5 bill]
3) a VERY steady hand

also make sure you have polarities correct on things like cap chips, pin1 on smd-ic's and know how to read the garble on the components.

tip: when you get a bag or tube of smd, label it and just keep the pieces in that container. this is so you dont have to read the garble on the components.

in electronics mfg houses they have automated pick-n-place machines which stick the smd components onto the board really quickly with little arms, then the whole shebang gets to surf the wave solderer. 50 gallons of molten solder is totally hypnotic watching it flow. the flux is also the temporary glue and the boards are dragged face down on a little conveyor through the wave solder pool. then you run your finished boards through the dishwasher to clean off the soldering remnants and leftover flux

Hemisaurus · August 14, 2012, 04:49:08 AM

I've seen people use regular thru-hole components in a surface mount way, if drilling scares you, the Atari punk console was done this way

Quote from: SunnO))) on August 13, 2012, 08:08:21 PM
Really? It's that big of a deal? Weird.

Wait 'til you try it a few times, etching is not going to ever be one of my favourite pastimes

I suppose I should be glad we don't need to do layouts in our head anymore, and then put it on acetate with that sticky black tape, stick on PCB pads and a scalpel. I guess I'm going to stick to handwiring a while longer.

jibberish · August 14, 2012, 06:12:02 AM

http://custompcb.com/

little dippy boards like for pedals and splitters etc look like they fall into the "under $20" category. Looks like these places hook you up with software they want you to use to set up the board. i like it.

PLUS, once you get hooked up with them with your prototype, the actual mass production can be immediately run with no other development needed. you know they want to be the whole deal supplier.

they offer samples. samples are cool at times, get free shit, but you usually have to hasve some kind of qualifier to give them..idk

the reason i mention this idea is that if you do the math of how many prototypes you will actually make and the cost of the etching kits...maybe this is viable to put $20 into the pcb

Pissy · August 14, 2012, 10:15:08 AM

Don't many of those board makers have their own conversion from schematic to PCB? It seems like I recall it being relatively easy to make the transition with whoever you go with's software to the PCB, but only compatible with their process, so you were stuck ordering your boards from them. Which makes sense, as their software was free.

Hemisaurus · August 14, 2012, 11:08:10 AM

I'd be down with putting $20 into a one-off, if such a place exists. That one you linked has a minimum of 4, so $85 a time with shipping.

VOLVO))) · August 14, 2012, 12:27:11 PM

acid etching is Fun as fuck. Ive been doing it on shit for a couple months..

xayk · August 14, 2012, 01:12:55 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 14, 2012, 11:08:10 AM
I'd be down with putting $20 into a one-off, if such a place exists. That one you linked has a minimum of 4, so $85 a time with shipping.

http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Products says they'll do single pcb's for $10 setup & $2.50 per square inch. Roughly 2-week turnaround time.

I did pick up some copper board today, tho. Because why not.

VOLVO))) · August 14, 2012, 01:22:04 PM

Acid etched, but not for PCB purposes.

jibberish · August 15, 2012, 01:21:27 AM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 14, 2012, 11:08:10 AM
I'd be down with putting $20 into a one-off, if such a place exists. That one you linked has a minimum of 4, so $85 a time with shipping.

i apologize for not reading closer, but anyway that got thhe ball rolling as another possible avenue to explore.

that etched stuff is nice sunno, i lurked the general disc hobby thread. i like the butterflies one.
i decided to never talk about my hobbies of marine aquariums and martial arts ever again.

btw sunno, if u r still miffed over that gibson crap, just call it all my bad and keep on keepin on. i dont want to be at odds with anyone in here, including disco heh. fuck it, he knows some shit too. i'll rail his ass in general if i feel the need tho lol. collectively this place is a beast of info and it needs everyone to maintain beastdom.