Introduction + Slaving question

[morgantician]

Gentlemen!  My name's Morgan and I just came across this new SR board. I used to be really active on the original SR Jam Room board until it met its demise. I've cooled off on gear hoarding/experimentation for a years and now it looks like I'm getting back into playing heavy stuff again.

So here's a question:  I've whittled my collection down to my bulletproof '72 Orange OR120. It's looking like I might be playing bass in a new band and want to utilize this amp, though it's traditionally regarded as more of a guitar amp. Here's my scenario:  we all know that amps like these have a "sweet spot" of natural breakup. Since this is more of a guitar amp, my concern is achieving enough volume to have the bass be adequately present (yes, the band is loud). If necessary, I may find that sweet spot in sound an slave it out to a solid state bass amp to push the volume up.

Here's my question:  without breaking the cardinal rule of never running a tube amp without being connected to a cabinet, will I have to run a separate cab from the Orange and one from the SS amp, or is there some kind of load shed device I could run out of the Orange's speaker output, just so it doesn't...yano, blow up.

[morgantician]

P.S.  I look forward to trading/buying/selling gear with all of you, learning from you, and maybe even being able to teach a thing or two!

[clockwork green]

There are power soaks that can handle your Orange...simply run your amp into that and then into the solid state power amp and you'll get a great sounding, quieter amp. You'll lose some of the tone that comes at higher spl's and when pushing speakers but it'll be better than your amp on 1 or going straight solid state. Pete Thorn has a good YouTube video on it.

P.S. Never sell that Orange...a good one is a keeper for life.

[morgantician]

To be honest, this is all in the interest of pushing it louder (though that's a perfect point about being able to get the same tone, quieter).

I couldn't sell the Orange. And I've had offers.  Everyone always talks about "the quest" and I went through so many amps before landing on this Orange, and I'll be buried with it. She's a little tattered on the outside, but I picked her up for a cool grand, and besides a Peavey Butcher this has been the best work horse I've ever owned. I've dropped it; been shaken off of cabinets; even a family of mice built a home inside it while left out for 4 months - she's never failed to turn on.

[Mr. Foxen]

Loudness is determined by the cabinet. So concentrate there. A Barefaced Super 15 is fairly expensive, but is as sensitive as two of the current Ampeg 8x10s at once, and goes lower, so that's what I do to get my 140w bass head to gig volume.

[Hemisaurus]

Parts Express sell 50W and 100W load resistors in 4 & 8 ohm for this kind of thing.

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=340&CFID=9137928&CFTOKEN=12336352

As a newcomer, you could have used the search function, and found this topic has already been covered before. The sticky policy is to sticky topics that would be on top anyways, so you'll have to search.

Summarising, if you're using an Orange and taking the signal from the Echo Out, which is the only line out they have, that signal is taken from the preamp, so the easiest and cheapest thing to do is just to remove your power tubes (number them first, so you can put them back in the same place) and then you can run your amp no problems, with no need for a load.

That said, I'm using 100W tube amp for practice (I'm bass), pushing a single Peavey 2x15 wired for 16 ohms, loaded with Black Widows and it's loud enough, I run a line out through an old Yamaha solid state amp, to a single 18" for extra bass, but I've not bothered to take that out of my practice space, just the 100W and the 2x15. I could hook up my other 2x15 to the 100W and it would probably toast me.

[dunwichamps]

If you want to dump your amp into a resistive load your going to need over 100W for a safe margin. If you begin to heat up the resistor it will derate at higher temperatures. Along with the fact that amps can often output RMS power over their rated output, 100W is cutting it close on a nominally rated 100W amp. id recommend something like 200W.

Pulling all of the power tubes will eliminate the output and will not need a load to dump into. The only possible issue with this is that your supply voltages will rise because your running the PT secondary in an almost no load situation since the preamp pulls very little current. The only problem with this is that your caps will be experiencing larger than normal voltage on them and this is often problematic for either caps only rated for the working voltage of the amp (ie when power tubes are in and properly biased) or for older caps where electrolytics get used to operating at a particular voltage and if they after a long time are expected to run at a larger voltage, will prematurely die. However, these are most likely secondary concerns and you should be okay.

[Lumpy]

Mr. Foxen's suggestion was good (more efficient cabinets = louder) but I would also add "more cabinets" (as many as your amp can handle). Besides efficiency, the more speakers the better.

There are many ways to skin a cat (get great tone). Slaving a 2nd solid state amp, and using a power soak (etc) seems like an expensive and complicated way to get there. Is anybody actually doing this in the real world (garage players and kooks excluded)? I've never noticed it in real life. Why? Extra expenses. Extra stuff to carry. Unnecessary. Silly use of an Orange amp. You're going to lug a 60 pound, vintage, 2000 dollar amp around, just so you can use the preamp section?

This surely cannot be the only way you can get a bass sound you like (the Orange head) but if it is, it's a pity. I would try Mr. Foxen's suggestion, or run a 2nd amp/cab (maybe clean/dirty), or just buy the head that can accomplish what you want. Maybe a power amp/preamp rack setup, if you need excessive power. You need to look around more at other options.

[Hemisaurus]

Matt Pike used to do it, George Rice I think used a 4x12 and a Marshall and a Matamp and a 4x15 or something.

It is done. Whether it should be done, hmm

[fuzzfarmer]

I wouldnt want to risk such a sweet amp.

Run the OR120 to one cab, run slave out of the Orange to next amp and 2nd cab.

If you only have one cabinet, run the Orange, until you can afford the other stuff.

[morgantician]

Yeah it was just an idea. I had heard that was one of Al Cisneros' tricks. I always love experimenting with new ways to manipulate stuff.

More than likely I'll go back to what I used to do for guitar and just get two cabs and split the signal to two amps. I've always liked the ability to blend tone that way.

[Mr. Foxen]

Best getting a PA power amp or SS bass head to do the dual amp thing, use that for bottom into a suitable subby cab, and use the Orange for colour and tone.

[VOLVO)))]

Yeah it was just an idea. I had heard that was one of Al Cisneros' tricks. I always love experimenting with new ways to manipulate stuff.

More than likely I'll go back to what I used to do for guitar and just get two cabs and split the signal to two amps. I've always liked the ability to blend tone that way.

Al uses a guitar full stack for his high end and shit...

[MichaelZodiac]

With Om & Sleep he did use 2 412s but the amp on it was a small SS head which looked like a GK actually.

[moose23]

With Om & Sleep he did use 2 412s but the amp on it was a small SS head which looked like a GK actually.

That was for Europe, in the States it's normally a guitar head but his rig seems to change with every tour.

[dunwichamps]

I would recommend a post power amp slave out box you can build one urself, fairly simple.

[Mr. Foxen]

Al is endorsed by Ampeg now for the tour support. Pretty lame, but makes the logistics loads easier as he can tap them up for a rig for each leg of a tour.

[jibberish]

let's see if i have this straight:

OP wants MORE VOLUME

people suggest burning power into load resistors

load resistors dont make much noise.

a pre-amp tap/ signal splitter is what the correct idea would be.
also maybe just using a 500w ss amp and not use the orange may be easier, and possibly cheaper

[Jake]

I read it as using power soaks and load resistors to absorb the Orange's output while using the amp's signal-out into another more powerful power amplifier. Although, I may be wrong (as is often the case).

My mildly useless and unimaginative 4¢ would be to:
• Marry the Orange as is to a louder, more efficient bass cabinet – agreeing with a previous post

OR

• Use the Orange (into whatever cab) for "color" and utilize a separate bass rig for the "ooomph" – agreeing with another previous post

If it were me, I'd try the former. If it's not working, you're already halfway to the latter!

[dunwichamps]

if pulling the signal pre-phase inverter will not give best results. Part of the Orange and Matamp sound is crushing on that phase inverter which is why a post power amp slave it a better idea. I would just run a small signal off the output into a large SS thing if you want large power. Utilize the amp sound 2

[jibberish]

if pulling the signal pre-phase inverter will not give best results. Part of the Orange and Matamp sound is crushing on that phase inverter which is why a post power amp slave it a better idea. I would just run a small signal off the output into a large SS thing if you want large power. Utilize the amp sound 2

just how subtle will this orange sound influence bass buried in the band really be? and will it be needed or even actually detected?
idk, seems like for this, sheer volume and a tight amp is probably more important than a boutique guitar tone.

[Hemisaurus]

if pulling the signal pre-phase inverter will not give best results. Part of the Orange and Matamp sound is crushing on that phase inverter which is why a post power amp slave it a better idea. I would just run a small signal off the output into a large SS thing if you want large power. Utilize the amp sound 2

just how subtle will this orange sound influence bass buried in the band really be? and will it be needed or even actually detected?
idk, seems like for this, sheer volume and a tight amp is probably more important than a boutique guitar tone.

Are you a bassplayer?

I have never heard of a guitarist giving consideration to how his tone sits in the mix before, hence me asking

This chap is a guitarist playing bass, which would answer your question.

Then again, as a bassplayer, I guess it depends on the band situation, especially in trio's that play slow stuff, the bass actually does more than just octave support a rhythm guitar, in a faster style like punk, just use anything that makes noise.

Though I've also found the bass itself is an important variable, my basses can sound hugely different, played through the same setups. Some bass/amp combinations just never sound right to me.

[jibberish]

i think you actually layed out the constraints regarding the consideration of what i was asking.  Now i suppose victor wooten would kick my ass for saying what i said, but you also said the other end of the discussion: certain bands do just need the bass note played and adequate volume and that's it.

[eddiefive10]

I.played around at one.time. with doing what Jake mentioned, run the Orange to say a 4x10 and rub the bass SA head to a 15 for your low end, the combination should give you plenty of tone,grit and volume

[Hemisaurus]

i think you actually layed out the constraints regarding the consideration of what i was asking.  Now i suppose victor wooten would kick my ass for saying what i said, but you also said the other end of the discussion: certain bands do just need the bass note played and adequate volume and that's it.

To heck with Victor Wooten, do you ever notice how so many instrument gods, not just bass gods, but guitar gods as well, play unlistenable jazzy, noodly crap, and nobody outside players of the same instrument listen to them.

I'd rather be Cliff Williams than Victor Wooten, anyday. He gets it, he's part of a band.

Apologies to the fans of the jazzy, noodly crap, I'm going off to listen to Om